Bullying

[23]

Thanks for seeing the pluto thing, Aquarius7000.

I'm on a bit of a roll. I was looking at this post:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8481
BML in the chart

....and then I got thinking about what someone said to me many years ago on this website to me (that infuriated me, probably partially my fault in hindsight):

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1313

Specifically refer to CJayne's post of 04-04-2006, 01:01 AM. It talks about BML and its effects. I've been trying to call it up on astro.com and can't seem to locate it (is it h13??) I seem to remember my BML being at 9 deg Aries in the 12th, and this would oppose my pluto. So in a very convoluted way, I can't help that this has something to do with bullying and maybe its a bit parallel to what happened on this post??

Edit - aha, I have located it, yes my BML is 9 deg aries in 12th.

 

[Jeremy]

I have seen a mars square pluto aspect play out *both ways*.

It looks to me (and appeals logically too) that there is no single aspect that tends to bullying, either giving or receiving of. I can say that I have this aspect, Mars in the 3rd and Pluto just under rising in the 12th and I was bullied quite badly.

I went to a proper English boarding school in the 1970s, the bullying was systematic, institutionalised and perfectly terrifying for an 11 year old after first leaving home. I don't even want to think about it particularly, but I was a mass of cuts and bruises for the first year, then I learned to fight, because that was the only alternative to continual suffering. Very often I found that people who bullied me became firm friends after I fought them; usually I won; having lots of Scorpio planets made me a dangerous opponent I think; I learned to go in very ruthlessly when I was forced into a confrontation, acting quickly and with finality usually stopped the situation.

It all stopped for me when one kid in the year above waloked past me and told me that after he had gone for a drink he was going to come back and beat me up. I followed him to the water fountain and as he was drinking I punched him in the back of the head and he broke his nose of the fountain; after that nobody ever picked on me again. That boy also became a good friend of mine afterwards.

It was cruel and really unpleasant I know but I think it shows how the Pluto Mars square goes both ways.

I want to add that I have not since school been remotely violent to another human being and I only acted that way at school after two years of mental and physical abuse on a scale that would today be considered medieval; I certainly did not behave in that way because I derived the remotest pleasure from it, quite the opposite, I was scared and miserable, but it was the only way I knew to stop being punched and kicked by other children.

Even now I shudder when I think about my school days.

 

[Jeremy]

I think it explains a lot.
First of all, I should say that in my view, it is not necessary to look at anyone else's chart to understand your situation; everything is included in our own nativity to determine our own destiny, even if you understand what motivates this other person it is irrelevant unless we have understood ourselves first.

Issues of control are entirely Plutonic. My daughter has Pluto in the third; she comes home from school every day telling me of who is plotting her downfall / is destroying her life / has it in for her / is the antichrist, I never say that these people are not doing these things of course, but I also try to tell her - very gently - that she might see darkness without realising that it is only a shadow cast by the Sun, if she changed her view it would not seem so dark.

That is Pluto. For you with Pluto t-squared, you have a lot of issues with seeing darkness, especially with those who you associate with out of a need to earn money. Add into this the fact that you feel a lot of tension when somebody is trying to thwart your dreams of success (Saturn in 11th) and the difficulties you cause for yourself by being very strong-willed and maybe a little abrasive when you are just trying to enjoy yourself then I think you do not need to complicate things much more.

Your Pluto has a double Venus placement as well; anything that upsets your feeling of ease and harmony is going to really upset you and you have a great deal of energy and intensity which other people might find hard to handle. Anyone with Pluto strongly configured is often the focus of irrational hatred from other people: why does it happen? Because you tweak their Plutonic self and a power-struggle - often to the bitter end - is the result. The only antidote to Pluto problems is finding the heart of compassion within yourself. If you can feel sympathy and love for this person, they are obviously very threatened by you and their actions are motivated not by hatred but by fear, self-doubt and insecurity, then you can find Minerva, not Pluto and transform that relationship.

I should also say that you have both Jupiter and Uranus in Peregrine (In Tyl's sense, not Ptolemys) so you probably come across as pushy, over-enthusiastic, loud, bombastic, cranky, odd and abrupt. I am not saying that just to be mean, it is quite clear; it also gives you great power potentially; if you can transform that Plutonic paranoia into Minervan compassion then you have the opportunity to develop into a person that is unique, noble, compassionate and quite possibly brilliant.

Rise above.

Jeremy

 

[Jeremy]

Re: Bullying-Thanks for explaining

Do allow me some, well what should I say, feedback or response as below

Feedback is good

I think it is out of a need to keep my values intact (sort of keep the faith, also assoiated with house 2- where my Pluto is) more than "out of a need to earn money"

I understand what you are saying and yes, that will be a part of it, but I don't know anybody who lies awake at night worrying about their values: money on the other hand... Okay, I know what you mean by this, but all I was pointing at is that Pluto in the second signifies obsessions relating to money; more specifically with Libra configured it would suggest obsessive financial relationships. I think it is worth thinking about how the 2nd operates in keeping with the 6th and the 10th. The 2nd (actually this is not my idea but Donna Cunningham's, and I think she makes a lot of sense) as the 2nd determines factors of work which we do only for money, as opposed to the 6th which suggests work for its own sake (or the work ethic) and the 10th, which is all about status as you know, but rather the career is simply an expedient means to realising status which is why it has become the house of the "career". I can relate to this as well, because I have several planets in the 2nd. Anything in the second, and the ruler of it, gives an insight into what work we do just for money, rather than because we want to, or are ambitious for fame or whatever. That was my reasoning: since Libra on the second would somewhat suggest relationships that we make just for the purpose of making some money, and let us not forget that Libra, in keeping with its opposite Aries, is extremely competitive; so it is fair I think to consider competitve relationships that we endure because we have to make money.

On a more vaguely philosophical note it is worth remembering that none of us are very good at Pluto. It is after all where we most need to change and are least able to. Why should we have this difficulty? Only because we cannot see that we need to change. If you say that you have a need to keep your values intact rather than a money issue that is fine; I was not saying that you had a problem with money although I know people with Pluto in the 2nd and they really are quite fixated on money. Maybe with Libra you might be drawn to marry someone rich, but whatever the minutiae, I would be surprised if money wasn't a blind spot for you with Pluto placed there, and so tensely configured too.

All of which I say without knowing the first thing about you or your situation of course; I perhaps make a lot of talk here on these boards and I guess I do tend to the didactic, but I put that down to an unaspected Mercury in Scorpio, sharp, perhaps with a reception with Pluto it makes my communications uncomfortable and slightly tactless. I have no idea really, my intention is only to learn and to help where I can.

This bit about the double Venus.. I can't understand, perhaps I missed that, can you explain please?

It is only a reference to having Pluto in Libra in Taurus' house, thus double Venus. That's another way of saying life must be pleasant... or else

Actually I sympathise a lot with your situation. My last job I programmed software systems for Nortel, the Canadian Telecomms company and I made plenty of money although my employer - actually a middleman between myself and the actual company itself - stole a quarter of a million dollars from me after which I lost my house and everything of much financial worth in my life. I know what it is to have irrational and difficult experiences connected with your career, maybe it is because I have Ur/Pl rising, so I am sympathetic. I also know that it takes a real power of compassion to forgive someone for destroying everything you have worked for over a decade, but I managed that and in fact I am coming to see that in a very real way, he did me a big favour by ruining me; I would not go back to being the person I was before the swindle, that's for sure.

Whatever happens, I hope you can come out intact. Some people in this life there is no answer for, so perhaps you just have to know where to pick your battles and where to retire. There are always other jobs.

I wish you luck and happiness,
Jeremy

 

[gaer]

Even now I shudder when I think about my school days.

It's a sad commentary on society that peaceful people are so often forced to fight. To me it means that we are not respected for being peaceful until we prove that being peaceful is a choice, not a weakness.

I had a similar experience in school, but nothing anywhere near as drastic as yours.

Gaer

 

[Rasalhague]

gaer; you are correct. Pluto is in my ninth! I typed it out by memory, which was wrong! I think your comments were very striking. I guess I've been through the same: not noticing you're perceived different in the beginning. I'm unsure whether the bullying truely was provoked out of lack of self-confidence. I felt more like I knew where I was going, but the rest just saw something else. I was oblivious to it for a long time, then I proceeded to think that it's 'not the way it should work'. You know the deal, probably As for the disagreeable part; >.> Mars in 7 kind of makes you weary about opening your mouth too much. I've grown accustomed to clearly state my intentions, and I guess that's what the whole bullying thing has taught me in the end. To this day people have trouble assessing me as friend or foe, I get really skittish reactions. So I always feel like I must compensate by explaining everything to not scare anyone off.

lillyjgc; Is that the Neptune/Pluto/Chiron yod? It's a Yod shared by a lot of people, but I guess the house locations are very important. I was teachers pet, unfortunately. lol. I didn't want to be I just ended up liked by the teachers. On the other hand, they didn't think much of me. So the theme returns! I make an entirely different impression than how I feel inside. They thought I was too tender and shy to make something of myself, so they recommended a very low education. I have a bachelors now and if it weren't for the low advice, perhaps I would have had a masters (ran out of funds). I could have done it easily. The "omg, are you attacking me" thing seems to occur to me frequently as well as people completely freezing up. They look rather unsure whether I'm "good" or "bad".

 

[NeptuneAscendant]

If Pluto (=power, control, manilpulation) is either placed in the outer world houses like 10 or 11 or even 1 (your own house), and negatively aspected (through Mars or Saturn esp), then such tendencies exist

I have Pluto in my tenth house and Saturn is squaring Pluto from the first house. I was bullied horribly throughout school. It never seemed to stop and it only got worse. I didn't have any friends, had low self-esteem, and didn't stick up for myself. My chart details if anyone is curious:

May 8, 1993 at 12:45 AM
New Brunswick, NJ, USA
74w27 40n29
And yes, it was daylight savings time.

 

[aquarius7000]

I have Pluto in my tenth house and Saturn is squaring Pluto from the first house. I was bullied horribly throughout school. It never seemed to stop and it only got worse. I didn't have any friends, had low self-esteem, and didn't stick up for myself. My chart details if anyone is curious:May 8, 1993 at 12:45 AM; New Brunswick, NJ, USA; 74w27 40n29

Hi and a belated happy birthday to you with lots of good luck for your new solar year ahead.
I will have a look at your birth chart for you (as a birthday present from my side ).
Btw, I find it amazing that you are into this sphere of life - astrology - at the of 15 itself

 

[Wilmingtonian]

My daughter's school does monthly anti-bullying programs. All of the teachers in the state go every year now to seminars teaching them how to prevent bullying. I have heard that the problem is rampant.

Is there an astrological reason for the dramatic rise in bullying in the last 10 years?

 

[aquarius7000]

..Is there an astrological reason for the dramatic rise in bullying..

Check these websites out for possible answers

http://www.elsaelsa.com/archives/2007/05/28/defining-the-pluto-in-scorpio-generation/

http://www.astrofuturetrends.com/id29.html

//aquarius7000

 

[NeptuneAscendant]

Haha, thank you, Aquarius7000.

I think the two bullies of the zodiac are Taurus and Aries. Having the Sun, Moon, or Ascendant as Taurus or Aries could indicate bullying tendencies. This is, of course, very general. I have a Taurus sun and it would never cross my mind to bully someone else.

 

[Wilmingtonian]

Thanks for the articles, Aquarius7000.

I can see how the Pluto in Scorpio generation could be susceptible to bullying. I don't see Scorpios as the primary candidates for bullying, but they're not to be pushed too far, either. An immature Scorpio can be very damaging to those around them--especially if they feel threatened. They can also be calculating, patient in their retribution, and downright cruel at times. The sort of pressuring or manipulating other students into picking on the unfortunate few is a trait I kind of associated with Aries, but I can certainly see how a strong Pluto in Scorpio could fall into that trap as well.

 

[aquarius7000]

Thanks for the articles, Aquarius7000.
I can see how the Pluto in Scorpio generation could be susceptible to bullying. I don't see Scorpios as the primary candidates for bullying, but they're not to be pushed too far, either. An immature Scorpio can be very damaging to those around them--especially if they feel threatened. They can also be calculating, patient in their retribution, and downright cruel at times. The sort of pressuring or manipulating other students into picking on the unfortunate few is a trait I kind of associated with Aries, but I can certainly see how a strong Pluto in Scorpio could fall into that trap as well.

Bullying comes from a bruised ego, and a big portion of inferiority complex and insecurity within oneself.
The three signs known in astrology to be more predisposed to egoism are Scorpio, Leo and Aries. (The earth signs Taurus and Caps don't lag much far behind when it comes to being eogistical, but it takes a lot to stir these signs up and push them that far. It's more the stubborness and headstrong attitude with both these signs. Taureans, at least, are generally very relaxed and patient)

In my opinion, the difference between Aries and Scorps when it comes to bullying is that

Aries have no qualms about outright openly bullying those, who they feel deserve it, especially if they are coming in their way to climbing that ladder higher and higher. So it's more the 'me first' and 'elbow you others out of the way' kind of thing when an Arien bullies around. Btw, to a large extent the sister fire sign, Leo is also quite like Aries, and can also be quite a loud bullier, esp if they are not getting their due attention. It's more the agression and bossiness when the fire signs bully, you see. But, it usually all happens openly, so you know, most of the times, where you stand with them, which makes things easier to handle. The good thing (if you can call it good) about the bullying fire signs is that when the 'fire' dies out, Leo's and Aries forget and forgive just as easily as they flared up, but with Scorps, there is no forgetting and certainly no forgiving, if Scorps feel they have been wrongly done by
Being bullied by Scorps, ouch!!!, that would give me sleepless nights (it actually did) because Scorps don't bully around simply by being loud and agressive, so you at least know what's next that you'll be facing at their hands. It's quite the contrary, it's the Plutonic tactics that apply here: secretiveness and manipulation (Pluto=extremes), depending on how badly you have managed to ruffle a Scorp's feathers. There's nothing light-hearted with a Scorp, it's all very high-voltage stuff giving you the 'shock of your life', in the real sense of the phrase But the other extreme (positive) is also loyalty
Sorry, the above is only my opinion, and there's no malice intended towards any sign, please.

Peace to The Magnificent 11
from the 12th one: aquarius7000

 

[gaer]

Although the certain signs may tend to dominate in the charts of bullies, I think it's more fair and more accurate to simply say that each sign bullies in a different way, when showing its most negative side.

For instance, Pisces (when prominent and showing its worst side) can bully people as much as any other sign, but it tends to do it in a way that appears passive, and it's very hard to pin down where the negative energy is coming from.

Any sign can bully. Libra, my own Sun and Moon and sign, can bully anyone who does not adhere to its own code of fairness and balance.

The problem is that there are countless ways to bully, and all of them hurt if you are the victim.

 

[Wilmingtonian]

I agree with you, Aquarius7000, about Scorpios. I think of bullies as outright meanies, which is probably why I think of the nastier side of Aries. But the very last person I would want as my enemy is a Scorpio.

If you'll pardon a crude analogy from "The Godfather", Sonny Corleone bullied the way an Aries would. Loud and in your face and with a temper that burned red hot. Michael Corleone was like the Scorpio. He'd let you think he was your friend, he'd take his time, but in the end he'll be twisting the knife in your back while he's smiling at your face. I don't really think of them as bullies, but Scorpios (myself included) can manipulate in an unholy way. (Of course, I try not to.)

And I agree with you, Gaer, that there are different types of "bullying". Pisces can be very, very passive aggressive. I'm thinking of two Pisces that I've know that just love to be victim and always seem to end up in that position (glorying in it, I might add).

And then there are Cancers. I've known a few to weave a wicked web of manipulation to go along with a lot of pouting and woe-is-me-ism.

Every sign has it's weaknesses and when we're immature or insecure, they manifest in horrible ways. There isn't a sign that's immune from it.

Speaking of which, there's a very funny book (entertaining, if not actually helpful) called Nasty Astrology by Richard MacDonald. It's one of my favorites.

 

[gaer]

And I agree with you, Gaer, that there are different types of "bullying". Pisces can be very, very passive aggressive. I'm thinking of two Pisces that I've know that just love to be victim and always seem to end up in that position (glorying in it, I might add).

Whenever I talk of signs, I'm talking about far more than Sun sign. I assume you are too.

It is amazing how people, playing the victim, can take over other people's lives. The thing about passive-aggressive people is that they can flip in a heartbeat too. Victims will suddenly go on the attack, and it can be quite brutal because it is totally unexpected. But I don't want to link this with Pisces, only with Pisces energy misused.

And then there are Cancers. I've known a few to weave a wicked web of manipulation to go along with a lot of pouting and woe-is-me-ism.

Every sign has it's weaknesses and when we're immature or insecure, they manifest in horrible ways. There isn't a sign that's immune from it.

That was my point.

Speaking of which, there's a very funny book (entertaining, if not actually helpful) called Nasty Astrology by Richard MacDonald. It's one of my favorites.

That reminds me of "You Were Born on a Rotten Day" by Jim and Jerry Hopkins Critchfield. I read it years ago and thought it was very funny.

Gaer

 

[Miss Saturn]

I would disagree in saying Libra bullies because others are not adhering to it's own codes/fairness and balance, suggesting that Libra is always fair in it's reasons for bullying. Is there a "right " reason for bullying . whereas Pisces is just "negative", and will bully passively. I think if both signs are bullies it is coming from a negative place not just for Pisces but from Libra as well. No matter how it is justified.

 

[gaer]

I would disagree in saying Libra bullies because others are not adhering to it's own codes/fairness and balance, suggesting that Libra is always fair in it's reasons for bullying.

You misunderstood my point. Libra is not always fair. It just thinks it is when it is arrogant, insensitive and—well, other things that are very negative. I tried to express that it can be as negative and cruel as any other sign, regardless of what the reasons are.

Is there a "right " reason for bullying .

No. Not in my opinion.

whereas Pisces is just "negative", and will bully passively. I think if both signs are bullies it is coming from a negative place not just for Pisces but from Libra as well. No matter how it is justified.

I agree completely, and I don't know why anyone would disagree.

Gaer

 

[Miss Saturn]

The more I have thought on it your right . I was thinking if a Libra feels anger what it is angry about, usually seeing the situation as being unfair, or people not treating them equally perhaps. A Pisces angry is when they feel they have sacrificed for everybody, and then the Martyr comes out. They can bully through guilt perhaps. Although I would have to think on this more.

 

[gaer]

The more I have thought on it your right . I was thinking if a Libra feels anger what it is angry about, usually seeing the situation as being unfair, or people not treating them equally perhaps. A Pisces angry is when they feel they have sacrificed for everybody, and then the Martyr comes out. They can bully through guilt perhaps. Although I would have to think on this more.

About four decades ago, a much older man told me that I was not a kind person. He was someone I admired, and because of that, the comment hurt. It hurt because it was half-true. I was young, very proud of my mind, and I was arrogant.

It's not true that I was a totally unkind person, but I was far to rough on people, often with little or no reason. Usually that will not happen today unless I'm angry, which is still not an excuse, but I don't think any of us are at our best when angry.

That's why I think there are an infinite number of ways to bully people. It's really about misuse of power, and I think when we are young we don't always realize it when we intimidate people, make them feel inferior, make them feel little.

So the in the end, the exact reasons why we are cruel, for any reason, in any situation, are not important except for understanding how to stop being that way.

Signs, aspects, houses, transits—they should never be used as excuses for how we are, just as tools to understand why we are as we are and how we need to change. At least that's my point of view.

Gaer