Forecast For 2012

[Mark]

kimbermoon: Your statements are true, but I feel they should be put in a certain light. Neptune brings ideals that get disappointed because Neptune inspires a kind of imagination that surpasses one's inability to see the obvious. I find it quite common that other people will react to these ideals of mine because of their own short-comings (shown in their charts), not because of me nor Neptune. They don't see the real me. They see the role in their head that they assign to me.

It's true that the influences of Neptune must be learned like riding a bike, so nobody is good at it at first. Over time, however, it begins to become obvious that Neptune is doing nothing more than showing you the difference between illusion and reality. In fact, I'm beginning to think that a strong Neptune-like influence is necessary in order to see past the usual bull**** of daily life with other people. Without such wild, illusion-breaching influences, a person is left to think that what they see before them is real (which is pretty much never true).

This is how I think Neptune influences scientific thought: by drowning the illusions of the mundane and thereby forcing the individual to look for Truth as an anchor so as to not float away. Neptune is associated with illusion and betrayal, but is it the cause of those things? I don't think so. I think Neptune is the indicator/predictor of those things. This influence is an highly valuable force of nature within an individual.

P.S. My natal Neptune is conjunct my natal galactic centre with a separation of less than 0.03 degrees (separating).

 

[kimbermoon]

kimbermoon: Your statements are true, but I feel they should be put in a certain light. Neptune brings ideals that get disappointed because Neptune inspires a kind of imagination that surpasses one's inability to see the obvious.

to be seen in a certain light? Through my own experiences of Neptune I can acknowledge the negative side yet still respect the positive experiences it can bring...I am referring to the delusions we can sometimes create for ourselves through the imagination, which can very often lead us astray...at the same time I honor the imagination as a necessary part of facilitating the differentiation between the Illusion and one's personal reality...but then individual realities are highly variable and that depends on a lot on our own actions and reactions...cause and effect.

In my reality, I have seen both sides of the coin regarding Neptune, which is the higher octave of Venus and in my case has the energy has finally directed me to a reconnection with the inner divinity...it has helped me to regain the sense of trust, sincerity and faith that was drained out of me. My point is that we have to remember that according to the birth aspects all the planets can express in a good way, or in a negative way.

In the natural vitasphere, the concept of polarity is also expressed; it also shows that Mercury is 'naturally opposed to Neptune and as such the imagination can either be idealistic and inspired, or it can be expressed more negatively as the individual experiences being worrisome, insecure, obsessive or victimization...so we end up having to consider whether the imagination has a basis in reality or whether it gets trapped in the web of illusion...Would you care to elaborate your own Neptunian aspects, and how you feel the energies work through you?
thanks for replying to my post.

 

[Mark]

kimbermoon: I think you and I are interpreting our experiences of these influences quite differently... of course, when you think about it, it would be rather surprising if we didn't. I don't subscribe to the idea that the outer planets are "octaves" of the inner planets. It seems to me to be a short-hand way of shoving the outer planets into traditional methods astrology. I think of all the planetary realms/influences as being completely unique and free-standing, though there are some natural relationships. In function, it seems that Mercury and Neptune work like the negative and positive poles of a battery (respectively). Venus and Uranus work like the positive and negative poles (respectively) of a different battery. I feel that the word "octave" is a misnomer that leads to confusion. Notice that I've labeled Neptune and Venus as positive poles, and Mercury and Uranus as negative poles. The polarity might be what leads some to use words like "octave" in the first place. This is fine, but we must remember that positive poles are paired with negative poles, not like kind.

As to the effects of Neptune, perhaps it would be helpful to examine them over the lifetime of an individual. In childhood, strong Neptunian influences will produce an outstanding imagination that seems at times to be completely unconnected to reality. In adolescence, those Neptunian influences carry forth that childish purity of imagination, unable to understand the corrupt and broken pragmatism of the human world. To the Neptunian mind, close enough isn't good enough. It's obvious that this will cause tremendous disputes between an adolescent with strong Neptunian influences and anyone who tries to "talk some sense into them." In Truth, the highly Neptunian adolescent is the correct one, holding to purity of ideal, but those who support the human world as it is (the opposite of imagination) can never understand this fact.

In adulthood, one of strong Neptunian influences will have spent at least two decades swamped in Neptunian imagination, which seems to conflict with the artificial human world. This presumed conflict is what labels the imaginative creations as "illusions." Admittedly, Neptunian imagination is not concerned very much with pragmatism on a fundamental level, so it should be expected that the individual will float around in a soup of ideals for a while, rather than just get a job as he or she was told to do. Finally, there comes a point when the individual has spent so much time and energy dealing with these imaginative creations that he or she will begin to intentionally discriminate between illusion and reality. When the Neptunian mind finally "grows up," it becomes the expert philosopher, instinctively discerning the smell of bull****. To put it quite simply, when you've spent so much time dealing with your own illusory bull****, it becomes obvious when other people are bull****ing you.

So, while Neptune does lead one through a world of illusions, it also leads one out the other side and into the daylight. To be blunt, I think this process is absolutely necessary for everyone and most people do not put enough importance on it. Most individuals, of any astrological persuasion, are more motivated to be practical in the completely illusory human world. Only those of strong Neptunian influences end up becoming aware that the illusory human world really is just an illusion. Neptune gives you the dysfunction that you need in order to reject the artificial creations of humans and perceive the world for what it is.

As to myself personally, Neptune has been expressed rather vigorously in every part of my life. In my chart, it is the strongest member of a rather heavy Sagittarian stellium. Like I said before, my natal Neptune is separating from the galactic centre and is about 0.03 degrees away. It is also conjunct my South lunar node, loosely conjunct the Moon, trine to the Sun, sharply biquintile to Mars, and sharply sextile to Pluto. It is also parallel South to the Moon (0.25 degrees apart) and parallel South to the lunar apogee (0.34 degrees apart). Oh, and my natal Neptune is also retrograde. Considering these things, it would be extremely difficult (if even possible) to isolate which manifestations were influenced by Neptune alone and which ones were modified by other factors.

 

[Lihirakash]

Regarding the Mayan end date astrological chart and the Lost Book of Nostradamus:

There is a drawing of a lobster depicted next to a green spiral or whirlpool, and both of these are shown below the conjoined images of the Sun and Moon suspended by a triangle, which itself contains three crescents:



I wonder if this could represent the grand trine [golden triangle] in water element [spiral/whirlpool] involving Varuna, the North Node [conjoined Sun and Moon] and Pallas that also occurs on Dec. 21, 2012. The orb in this grand trine is nearly exact. As Todd Adams mentions in http://picasaweb.google.com/Michele...radamus?feat=embedwebsite#5126589036754449522 , "in the 17th century and probably before, Cancer was denoted as a Lobster, not a crab".

 

[kimbermoon]

kimbermoon: I think you and I are interpreting our experiences of these influences quite differently... of course, when you think about it, it would be rather surprising if we didn't. I don't subscribe to the idea that the outer planets are "octaves" of the inner planets. It Notice that I've labeled Neptune and Venus as positive poles, and Mercury and Uranus as negative poles. The polarity might be what leads some to use words like "octave" in the first place. This is fine, but we must remember that positive poles are paired with negative poles, not like kind.

Sometimes for the student it is better to have different perspectives to consider...I have long studied the works of A.T.Mann and his 'round art' regarding octaves which intuitively feels right to me...I don't see it as being so different from the concept of Harmonics. Thus i speak of a higher level of awareness that is also intertwined with spirituality

I think that polarization is a strong component revealed in the chart: depending on the level of consciousness. Many individuals will express from a lower level of consciousness [on the physical and mental level], while some will be more aware of the awakened consciousness.

"Neptune gives you the dysfunction that you need in order to reject the artificial creations of humans and perceive the world for what it is."

Yes it also creates distractions from the physical reality, symbolizing the veil shrouding individuals from reality; again this can either be positive or negative ...what about the escapist tendencies it can trigger, and the addictions with drugs and other self-denigration that can result? At this level of human evolution there are too few who can generate the positive expressions of this duplicitous planet.

" Like I said before, my natal Neptune is separating from the galactic centre and is about 0.03 degrees away." so how do you interpret this regarding your own life?

In a productive discussion, it is not helpful to deny another's perspectives; rather let it be a connecting point for shared understanding and mutual growth.

 

[Mark]

I must assert that disagreement is absolutely vital to growth and development. If you don't ever find a reason to think that you might be wrong, then you'll never change. That is true of everyone. Disagreement only becomes a problem when selfish people expect that their ego must be stroked every time someone disagrees with them. I don't see this happening in this thread, but it is obvious elsewhere. Most people can deal with disagreements as long as you don't call them wrong. For those whose self-worth is tied to the idea that they already have the right answers, being called wrong is maddening blasphemy. To those people, I can only say, "Boohoo for you. Go home and close the blinds." Again, I don't see this behaviour here. It's just what can be expected most of the time. That need to comfort someone's ego is the reason that most conversations become useless quickly. If you believe I am wrong, then please contradict me. You don't have to be insulting, but I want you to contradict me. I can't grow if I'm allowed to assume that I'm already right all the time (a very Neptunian attitude).

In speaking of expressing planetary qualities, I think it is important to note that everyone expresses both high and low qualities. The more developed a person is, the more they tend to express the higher qualities, but everyone expresses both. Over the lifetime of an individual, it should be expected that the lower qualities associated with a sign or planet will be more commonly expressed in early life and the higher expressions should become more frequent in later life. I don't think there is a reliable way to label a "highly developed" person or a lowly one. I think it is true that people can experience "bad lives" in the same way as "bad days." A well-developed soul doesn't necessarily always express itself correctly. We do have to relearn everything every time we pass through this place, after all.

Drug and alcohol use fall into the escapism category. The half-developed Neptunian mind will want to escape from the artificial human world at all costs. The key to remember is that they/we aren't escaping from the natural world, just the human world. If you were to take an adolescent with strong Neptunian influences out into the forest for a camping trip, there would be absolutely no attempt to escape reality because reality has become simple, obvious, and pleasant (the way it was supposed to be). Neptune has a natural feel for these things. The illusory, artificial human world must be escaped. The Neptunian mind flees anything that smells like someone else's illusion. This behaviour illuminates Neptunian motives rather well. The natural world isn't the problem and illusions themselves aren't the problem. When someone believes the illusions to be true, that's when the Neptunian mind starts to squirm. In this way, the Neptunian mind works as a "crazy detector."

As to manifestations in my own life, that's what I spent three paragraphs describing before. I didn't read these influences out of a book. I read them from my own life. It just seems obvious to me that this is the way Neptune works and I'm sure the Neptunian influences had something to do with that. I've been led through the tunnel of illusions and out the other side. Because of this, I have questioned and ridiculed my ideas and believes more viciously and thoroughly than anyone else ever could. This is why I have no fear of being wrong. I've been wrong before and to be wrong again could only make me more right. More than that, I know that there is a certain core of obvious fact that cannot be denied. I tried to deny it in every possible way, but the Truth remains. If you keep knocking everything around you, the one thing that won't fall down is fact. Science is indeed a very Neptunian process.

P.S. Neptunian influences will have a lot to do with the coming changes upon the Earth, as it has with the changes already seen.

 

[kimbermoon]

You don't have to be insulting, but I want you to contradict me. I don't see how you can view my comments as being insulting...I am not here to debate things or stir up controversy. Perhaps you are more sensitive to my Scorpio nature...if you think I am being authoritarian or condescending you misunderstand...my sincerity and honesty is supported by my Sun/Jupiter conjunct and my moon in Pisces configured in a Grand Water Trine with Saturn...perhaps you may also be reacting to my Mars in Capricorn...If I recall correctly I think you have Mercury in Capricorn, while mine is in Cancer...this is apt to create differences of opinions and communication styles...still again I am not interested in labelling and judging others, or in trying to examine the most miniscule of offhand statements...I still believe that my purpose here is simply to offer up considerations from a different perspective for those willing to think outside of the box [Mercury/Uranus conjunct]

"it's just me, can we take it from the top?"

"The more developed a person is, the more they tend to express the higher qualities, but everyone expresses both. Over the lifetime of an individual, it should be expected that the lower qualities associated with a sign or planet will be more commonly expressed in early life and the higher expressions should become more frequent in later life." well stated.

I don't think there is a reliable way to label a "highly developed" person or a lowly one. " It is not about labelling anyone, it is about knowing the difference between the intellect and wisdom."

again with the right or wrong tangent...going a bit off topic I think since truth and righteousness are determined subjectively. "Is your truth the same as mine?" asked Pontious Pilate.

Science is indeed a very Neptunian process...well that depends on perspective...I think that Uranus is associated with the creative intellect, while Neptune is much different, relating more to the higher mind connected with the collective consciousness.

P.S. Neptunian influences will have a lot to do with the coming changes upon the Earth, as it has with the changes already seen.

I do agree

I don't know if I want to play anymore if you only want me to contradict you so that you may have a bone to chew on...

 

[Mark]

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that you were being insulting. I tried to say the opposite twice. I was only saying that you can disagree with someone without being insulting. You are, in fact, illustrating my point. You are so accustomed to serving someone's ego that you thought I was offended when you have done nothing offensive. If I was offended, it would be my fault, not yours! My ego is not involved in this conversation. That's why I want you to call me wrong when you think I'm wrong. When you don't have an emotional attachment to being perceived as correct, you are then free to think and discuss so that you can actually become correct, rather than just look the part. I am not offended by you nor your words and I hope that you're not offended by me and mine.

As to the intellect and wisdom, this part is tricky to discuss. I would say that real wisdom cannot be known. There is no overlap between the intellect (thought) and real wisdom (perception of fact exceeding carnal senses). The intellect can store information, categorise it, analyse it, and talk about it, but it cannot know anything that isn't finite. Wisdom simply does not fit into the "box of knowledge."

I must strongly disagree that Truth and righteousness are subjective by nature. Truth is, by definition, objective. Righteousness should also be thought of as objective because it can be differentiated from moral considerations (which are intellectual). In short, I believe Truth to be the Universe and righteousness to be the process of living cooperatively with the Universe. The real punch of this idea is the fact that the Truth is not the same as what you think to be true. We can talk all day about our perceptions of Truth, but still we are not talking about the Truth that exists without us. (Also, Pontius Pilatus only said that in Jesus Christ Superstar. Granted, it was a great production [especially in capturing the feeling of the time], but not the most factually accurate.)

I would say that Uranus is associated with intellect, but the intellect is not a creative thing. The intellect is used in deduction, the breaking apart of ideas. Creation is an act of induction, the building up of ideas, which escapes the reasoning power of the intellect. I actually question how relevant Mercury is to the discussion of intellect because Mercury seems to be more of a pragmatic persuasion that doesn't hold only to reason. Uranus represents the perfect intellect, unaccepting of excuses as to why the ideal must be compromised. Uranus and Neptune tend to hold to ideals, whereas Mercury and Venus seem to be more "secularly malleable."

I hope that I've not discouraged you from discourse. Even though we are only loosely skirting the thread topic, I was rather enjoying our conversation.

 

[kimbermoon]

I am not offended by you nor your words and I hope that you're not offended by me and mine.

Thank you for the clarification. Wisdom simply does not fit into the "box of knowledge." Indeed you are correct. In my aging years I have come to understand this concept: Knowledge must be channeled through experience to attain wisdom...Just because an individual shows intellectual tendencies does not make them wise...I have known way too many people of intellectual status who continue to act rather stupidly. The intellect does not automatically confer wisdom. Wisdom requires that you have the ability to apply what you have learned through your experiences. Intellect is of the mind, while wisdom is of the spirit. Intellect alone does not meet the challenge.


Most people have difficulty in understanding the nature of Truth.
I have shared my thoughts on that, as well as the harmonics between Uranus and Mercury...let's get back on track...what do you think about the Mayan prophecy and 2012? does it cause you any fear...or shall you laugh in the face of adversity?

 

[Love2Know]

Where did you hear the Mayans face their demise? Last time I heard no one knows what happened to them.

 

[Mark]

Well, the first thing I have to think is that the Mayans did not use the Gregorian calendar, so the year 2012 is more or less a guess. Maybe it's a good guess, but it's still a guess. Further, we have lost nearly all of the cultural context needed to interpret the few writings that still remain. All but a literal handful of Mayan writings were deliberately destroyed by the Spanish, just like the other cultures they rendered nearly sterile. I've read several translations of a single Mayan text and all of them made some sense unto themselves, but did not agree with each other. It seems to me that we would need a Mayan priest if we were to read the Mayan priestly writings. If we don't have a Mayan priest, we're basically guessing.

Don't get me wrong. There will be a fabulous cataclysm. It just won't be in 2012. It will take a few more decades. I think there's just too much left to happen between now and then. There are still things that have to be built up before the fall. I am quite confident that this cataclysm will occur prior to the year 2100, but I don't know by how much. At any rate, the world we have built has only a few decades left. Regardless of the timing, it is imperative that every person becomes concerned with rightness of being, which includes right relations with other beings.

 

[Lihirakash]

"the Mayans did not use the Gregorian calendar, so the year 2012 is more or less a guess"


From http://news.discovery.com/space/the-2012-mayan-calendar-doomsday-date-might-be-wrong.html:


A huge issue when studying ancient calendars comes when trying to correlate their time frames with our modern (Gregorian) calendar. After all, for archaeologists to work out when a big event is documented in the Mayan calendar (such as a war, famine or religious celebration), it needs to be translated into "our" years, months and days.

As the Gregorian calendar began 2010 years ago, we have a standard time line for over two millenia of historical events. But to understand the events documented by the fallen culture, Mayan scholars needed to find significant events common in both the Gregorian and Long Count calendars so they can "correlate."

To do this, most Mayan scholars use a well-respected correlation factor called the "GMT constant." GMT stands for the initials of the last names of the archaeologists who calculated the constant: Joseph Goodman, Juan Martinez-Hernandez and J. Eric S. Thompson.

But Gerardo Aldana of UC Santa Barbara is now questioning the validity of this correlation factor due to a possible misidentification of ancient astronomical events in a new book called "Calendars and Years II: Astronomy and Time in the Ancient and Medieval World."

The Maya were highly skilled astronomers who kept meticulous records of the night sky. They documented the phases of the moon, recorded eclipses and even tracked the movement of Venus. In fact, the Venus cycle was an important calendar for the Maya. Their records enabled them to predict future astronomical cycles with great accuracy.

Although GMT uses several sources of astronomical, archaeological and historical evidence to correlate the Long Count with our modern calendar, Aldana has cast doubt on the accuracy of some of the astronomical evidence interpreted from ancient Mayan artifacts and colonial texts.
One of the key events described by Aldana is a battle date as set by the ruler of Dos Pilas (a Maya site in the current geographical location of Guatemala). Ruler Balaj Chan K’awiil chose this date by the appearance of Chak Ek'. According to Johan Normark, researcher at the Department of Archaeology and Classical Studies at Stockholm University, Chak Ek' "used to be believed to be Venus but in another study Aldana believes it is a [meteor]."

If this is the case, there's a correlation mismatch. If an event is assumed to be correlated with the rising of Venus (a predictable, cyclical occurrence), but it's actually correlated with a random event such as a meteorite, then we have a problem.

Add this to a mismatch of solar calendar dates between Mayan sites and the end date of Dec. 21, 2012 could be at least 60 days out.
Aldana presents several reasons why the GMT constant may not be reliable, and he's not the first to do so, but he does admit that it is widely accepted by the majority of researchers. A lot more work (such as supportive radiocarbon dating) therefore needs to be done before his findings can be corroborated.


While you raise a valid point that we cannot be certain that the Mayan end date corresponds to Dec. 21, 2012, even based on the preceding article excerpt it seems that that date may be only a few months off, rather than years.

Also, there appear to be several unique planetary configurations and events in 2012:
1. The Venus transit across the Sun on June 6:

(From http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/5thsun.htm )
The Maya began their Long Count on what they referred to as the ‘Birth of Venus.’ Scholars have never been able to determine what the Maya were referring to and neither have alternative researchers. Nevertheless their sacred calendar, the Tzolkin, placed the synodic cycles of Venus in a central role. The 104-year ‘Venus Round’ cycle (2 Calendar Rounds of 52 years each), was a very important ceremonial event as this was the point in time when the solar and sacred calendars realigned with the cycle of Venus.

...The Long Count began on what the Maya call the “Birth of Venus” so it is perhaps not too surprising that it ends on a Transit of Venus.

2. The T-square involving Pluto, Uranus and Mercury on June 11. See my post in http://astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43461&page=2

3. On Dec. 21, 2012 the following are in near exact configuration:
(a) Yod involving Pluto, Saturn and Jupiter with Pluto and Saturn in mutual reception.
(b) Grand trine involving North Node, Varuna and Pallas.
(c) Galactic alignment:

(From http://www.ancient-world-mysteries.com/2012.html )

...with reference to the crossing point of the earth ecliptic line and the galactic equator, one may note then that visually, there will be an alignment of the earth, the sun, and the galactic equator twice every year. In one instance, the earth will be between the sun and the galactic equator, and in another (exactly 6 months later) the sun will be between the earth and the galactic equator. The 2012 AD alignment as is said to be associated with the Long Count calendar is of exactly this type, being of the latter stated order: Earth > Sun > Galactic Equator, but critically, with one very important additional factor, which indeed makes the entire arrangement far more complex and infrequent: The 2012 AD conjunction is one that involves the earth, sun, and the galactic equator, specifically at a time when the earth is at the winter solstice (northern hemisphere) point of its orbit, at a seasonal extreme. Now, an event of this sort certainly does not occur every year, but rather once only every 25800 years. And this is due to a very subtle celestial motion: precession.

 

[Lihirakash]

In Beyond 2012 by Geoff Stray:

In The Way to Shambhala [Edwin] Bernbaum says that the golden age will come when the Sun, Moon and Jupiter all meet in the same quadrant as the Tishya constellation (which is part of Cancer). The next time this happens will be on July 26, 2014, according to my astronomical software [CyberSky]...

 

[Mark]

Please remember that the centre of the galaxy is currently located at tropical 27.02 degrees Sagittarius and only "moves" with the speed of precession. In 2012, the winter solstice point will be approximately 3 degrees away from the centre of the galaxy. The exact alignment that will coincide with the winter solstice will occur in or around 2125. The interesting thing is that there will be solar transits of Venus in 2117 and on December the 8th, 2125. If the Mayan calendar really does end (or "turn over") on the winter solstice of 2012, then it must not have anything to do with an alignment of the Earth, Sun, and centre of the galaxy. A seemingly more significant conjunction took place in 1998 and the conjunctions of impressive precision will come long after 2012.

I still can't help but feel that the 2012 conclusion is a stab in the dark. The date was derived from assumed starting points of a calendar of known cycles. Essentially, the professionals guess at which year the calendar started and then look for some significant thing at the ending of the calendar to confirm themselves. I honestly don't see much astrological indication of 2012 being any more important than 2011 or 2013. We have a winter solstice every year and the Sun passes the centre of the galaxy every year. Why should this one be so special?

 

[Lihirakash]

"Please remember that the centre of the galaxy is currently located at tropical 27.02 degrees Sagittarius and only "moves" with the speed of precession. In 2012, the winter solstice point will be approximately 3 degrees away from the centre of the galaxy. The exact alignment that will coincide with the winter solstice will occur in or around 2125."

While you are correct to point out that the Galactic Alignment may not be exact on Dec. 21, 2012, from what I understand it may not be accurate to pinpoint the Galactic Center with such precision as 27.02Sag.

This is an excerpt from http://alignment2012.com/whatisga.htm :

It is important to define what the Galactic Alignment is in precise astronomical terms. (See the Glossary below for terms.)
The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator. This alignment occurs as a result of the precession of the equinoxes.
Precession is caused by the earth wobbling very slowly on its axis and shifts the position of the equinoxes and solstices one degree every 71.5 years. Because the sun is one-half of a degree wide, it will take the December solstice sun 36 years to precess through the Galactic equator (see diagram below).
The precise alignment of the solstice point (the precise center-point of the body of the sun as viewed from earth) with the Galactic equator was calculated to occur in 1998 (Jean Meeus, Mathematical Astronomy Morsels, 1997).
Thus, the Galactic Alignment "zone" is 1998 +/- 18 years = 1980 - 2016. This is "era-2012."
This Galactic Alignment occurs only once every 26,000 years, and was what the ancient Maya were pointing to with the 2012 end-date of their Long Count calendar.


The following is taken from http://www.horary.com/hhcrl/galact.html :

According to "Astrophysical Directions" by Michael and Margaret Erlewine, energy emerges from the GC over 2 entire degrees of longitude near the last degrees of Sagittarius. Perhaps it is even more than that.

Some interesting observations have come to light about the late degrees of Sagittarius. Horary astrologer William Lilly is the source of our observations on the Void-of-Course Moon. He observed that the Moon is not really Void-of-Course in late Sagittarius. Prior to the discovery of the Galactic Center, no astrologer would have known why.

A good measurement of the GC is 26sa10 (26 degrees, 10 minutes of Sagittarius) in 1950. According to standard rates of precession, that would have been 25sa28 in 1900, and will be 26sa52 in the year 2000. [The observation that there is about a two-degree range for the GC suggests to me that these values, too, are an estimate based on the nuclear bulge of the Galactic Center.]




"We have a winter solstice every year and the Sun passes the centre of the galaxy every year. Why should this one be so special?"

I think that was the point of the article in http://www.ancient-world-mysteries.com/2012.html which I attached in my previous post:


...one may note then that visually, there will be an alignment of the earth, the sun, and the galactic equator twice every year....The 2012 AD alignment ...is of exactly this type, ..., but critically, with one very important additional factor, ... : The 2012 AD conjunction is one that involves the earth, sun, and the galactic equator, specifically at a time when the earth is at the winter solstice (northern hemisphere) point of its orbit....Now, an event of this sort certainly does not occur every year, but rather once only every 25800 years.


In other words, these two periodic events (winter solstice and Sun/center-of-galaxy alignment) coincide.




"Don't get me wrong. There will be a fabulous cataclysm. It just won't be in 2012. It will take a few more decades. I think there's just too much left to happen between now and then. There are still things that have to be built up before the fall. I am quite confident that this cataclysm will occur prior to the year 2100, but I don't know by how much."



Just out of curiosity, are you basing this on astrology (a particular planetary configuration or series of alignments) or are you basing this on your gut feeling? Not to cast doubt on your gut feeling (if that is what was prompting you to say this), since sometimes, as we all know, intuition can trump astrology or Tarot or Numerology or science, but just wanted to know why you think a cataclysm will occur and that it will be before 2100 but not in the near future.
​

 

[Mark]

Lihirakash: Okay, it seems that we've approached this topic based on different criteria. It is possible that the Mayans actually were talking about 2012, but it seems that other years would be a better fit. Depending on our criteria, 2125 may be the year to pick. In 2125, that rare solar transit of Venus will occur on December the 8th. Then (about 13 days later), we have the exact, geocentric conjunction of the Sun and galactic centre occurring as close to the winter solstice as it will get. If our criteria had to do with the galactic equator, rather than the galactic centre, then 1998 would have been the year to pick. Admittedly, 1998 was a very important year for many reasons and it's likely that many forces were then put into play which still haven't fully manifested. It seems that the last hope of the 2012 conclusion is holdover from the 1998 conjunction of the Sun and galactic equator.

As to the coming cataclysm, I have a few sets of years that I believe will be pivotal for a variety of reasons. To quote myself from another thread:

As to the astrology, check out where Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto will be in the 2020's. Watch as each one passes into a new sign. First Pluto entering Aquarius (2023), returning to the position it held at the time of the American revolutionary war. Then Neptune entering Aries (2024), returning to the position it held at the time of the American civil war. Then Uranus entering Gemini (2025), returning to the position it held at the time of the American civil war and World War II. It seems that the mid-2020's will be a time in which America is involved with serious conflict that will probably have global implications and may have to do with awakening the collective awareness of the human cause of human suffering.

Further, I also believe the year 2044 to be important and this year was derived through divination. It's a "from the mouths of babes" kind of thing. I haven't researched the year 2044 specifically. This one is more or less "gut feeling."

Here's the kicker. According to the readings of Edgar Cayce, the land that is now the United States will be geophysically changed, broad destruction will be experienced, and the country will be in a state of re-building before the year 2100. I respect the Cayce readings because they are testable. I have personally combed through many readings from the database, read a number of books about the readings (as well as about Cayce himself, written by those who knew him), and spent a good deal of time contemplating the information. Cayce puts every other modern psychic to shame in terms of detail and testable accuracy. If Cayce says one thing and the entire world says another, I will believe Cayce.

P.S. As I recall, the year 2012 wasn't specifically mentioned by the readings. I will have to look it up to be sure, but I don't recall finding anything when I searched for it last time. The year 1998, however, was mentioned more frequently than any other year. So, perhaps Cayce doesn't disagree with you, Lihirakash?

 

[tootsie]

Well, Theo's thread seems to be quite popular......maybe ye should reply even though he has been banned.
Surely....he could get another user name. Or....maybe he already has. We could start a thread....where is Theo?
T

 

[Lihirakash]

"It is possible that the Mayans actually were talking about 2012, but it seems that other years would be a better fit. Depending on our criteria, 2125 may be the year to pick. In 2125, that rare solar transit of Venus will occur on December the 8th. Then (about 13 days later), we have the exact, geocentric conjunction of the Sun and galactic centre occurring as close to the winter solstice as it will get."

Here is the event chart for Dec. 21, 2125:



Yes, that date does have some interesting aspects: an inconjunct between Mercury and Pluto (R) at 26/27 deg and Uranus square Neptune at 13 deg. (The moon is square Mars at 17 deg, but since the Moon transits so quickly, I usually -- perhaps incorrectly -- don't attach too much importance to the moon's placement for mundane events.)

But, contrast this with the event chart for Dec. 21, 2012:



1. In this chart you see an actual yod involving Pluto (direct), Saturn and Jupiter (R) all in the same degree. In addition, Pluto and Saturn (two major malefic planets) are in mutual reception, which some say further strengthens them. The theme suggested by Pluto-Saturn-Jupiter may be transformation/renewal by way of limitation/sorrow/death on a massive scale. With Jupiter being retrograde, perhaps the benefic influence of Jupiter will be lacking or curtailed.
2. Jupiter is conjunct the Aldebaran/Antares axis -- [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aldebaran, the star of illumination, is directly across the zodiac from Antares, the star of anger, pride and revenge. In the only exact opposition of two major stars; Aldebaran is located at 9 degrees of the sign Gemini, with Antares at 9 degrees of the sign Sagittarius.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aldebaran is said to be a portal to the mysteries of the mind and when balanced with the fixed star Antares, a portal to the mysteries of the heart[/FONT]...
(from http://souledout.org/cosmology/highlights/aldebaran.html)
3. Neptune is conjunct the Ascendant (if you use Greenwich, England as the reference place).
4. Chiron is square Venus: ?healing by repudiation of materialism
5. Grand trine involving the North Node, Varuna and Pallas at 25 deg in water signs (signifying the unconscious and spirituality). Here is something about Varuna from http://planetwaves.net/astrology/waterworlds.html :

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]The energy of Varuna is that which is too large to comprehend. In this respect, it has some attributes of the 12th house -- the house of overwhelming or incomprehensible aspects of life that act out of sight or in the deep background.

One astrologer who has done some interesting work with Varuna is Juan Revilla of Costa Rica. In an email conversation a few years ago, Juan explained to me his interpretation that Varuna is quite literally "behind everything" -- a potent and ominous force lingering in the far reaches of our lives. Among the many deities who have had planets and asteroids named for them, Varuna's energy seems closest to what we think of as God, the all-knowing cosmic entity that exists silently behind consciousness and events. [/FONT]

 

[Lihirakash]

"As I recall, the year 2012 wasn't specifically mentioned by the readings [of Edgar Cayce]. I will have to look it up to be sure, but I don't recall finding anything when I searched for it last time. The year 1998, however, was mentioned more frequently than any other year."

Yes, you are right:

Kevin Todeschi says in http://www.edgarcayce.org/2012/ :
Well, the bottom line is, the numbers 2012 are not in the Edgar Cayce readings. What Edgar Cayce did talk about is the change of an age, or the New Age, the Aquarian Age. He gave quite a bit of information on what this New Age will be about, what this transitional period is all about, and what we can expect. ...Cayce talked about how we’d enter into a New Age that would be known for three things: purity, global consciousness, and a height of spiritual consciousness that we have yet to encounter.


Yes, I also greatly respect Cayce's prophetic powers. In http://www.umsonline.org/2012/2012Pgs/Who/Edgar-Cayce-2012-Future-End-Predictions-Prophecies.html :
[Cayce] did not speak specifically about 2012, but rather his predictions were supposedly going to happen by the year 1998. His predictions were off and he had the timeline incorrect.
That is the trouble with predictions, it is hard to nail down the time at which they will happen specifically. That is the hardest part about prophecy: nailing down the timeline. Edgar Cayce's predictions are still thought to have much weight and probability. It is just that the timeline is off in his predictions. He suggested all these things would happen sooner than they are appearing in physical reality. They still might appear but at a later time. In fact, Cayce suggested that it would take generations for some of these things to come to pass. Shifting planets could take a long time to finish the process of rearranging themselves. Maybe that's where the 1000 years of peace on Earth come in, at least as far as the humans are concerned.

 

[knowhow999]

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Blessings and Light.

Knowhow999