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I know what you are trying to explain repeatedly, which is absolutely right. Usally I would not calculate the time that way and also would not recommend someone to do that as I do it in this chart. Just sometimes there are charts, where the time jumps out obviously for me, that's why I mentioned the 4 units in this case.

Kallinka if you just said " 4 units " from intuition or because you thought that jupiter will aspect saturn in cap or aquarious (because it jumped out in front of you) I dont know.You know better obviously :smile:

But still this is an astrological forum and i have to explain that what you said: " in my opinion Saturn gave the time (not only the location where the cat is) in both charts because he's the Almuten. Jup/Saturn=4days" in astrological terms is not correct.Especially since there are members who may read this thread and not understand what is the astrological reasoning and whether there's a solid basis on what we say.

Now if this "4 units" as time, was based on your intuition or other techniques which have nothing to do with the chart and horary, i had no idea:innocent: :smile:
 
Sure, there is always intution paired with what the chart is showing. I was seeing Saturn most important here. And I recently had a chart with a similar case, where only the actual degree between Saturn and Jupiter shows the time. This was also new for me.But well..there is more observation needed and actually doesn't match with the astrological rules I have learned. However in my opinion the time is always shown in every chart-we just don't be able to see it right away every time. But I'm not a psychic :-D and usually don't give time predictions when it's not asked,just when I'm sure in any manner.
 
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Sure, there is always intution paired with what the chart is showing. I was seeing Saturn most important here. And I recently had a chart with a similar case, where only the actual degree between Saturn and Jupiter shows the time. This was also new for me.But well..there is more observation needed and actually doesn't match with the astrological rules I have learned. However in my opinion the time is always shown in every chart-we just don't be able to see it right away every time. But I'm not a psychic :-D and usually don't give time predictions when it's not asked,just when I'm sure in any manner.

anyway i am glad that we agree that what you said was more likely your intuition, or perhaps mistakenly jupiter-saturn numerical difference and accidentally we have a coincidence from the first chart.

Nevertheless if we want to speak about time in this chart (though was not specifically asked) then time is given from the 2nd chart, with more clarity, due to moon-jupiter aspect and all the rest that i've previously mentioned.And indeed in less than two days(from the 2nd chart) he found him.
:smile::smile:
 
It was not mistakenly. I meant the degree between Jupiter and Saturn. Usually I would say time is the transit conjunction in December or when Jupiter and Saturn turn direct. Even the degree between Moon to Jupiter would have make more sense. But here I insist on the degree between Jupiter and Saturn. Look what Sun does-actually translating the light from Jupiter to Saturn. If the second chart shows the right time (and you know that I'm not a fan of casting second charts for the same matter), the first chart should show the time even more.
 
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It was not mistakenly. I meant the degree between Jupiter and Saturn. Usually I would say time is the transit conjunction in December or when Jupiter and Saturn turn direct. Even the degree between Moon to Jupiter would have make more sense. But here I insist on the degree between Jupiter and Saturn. Look what Sun does-actually translating the light from Jupiter to Saturn.

No its not kalinka..i dont know how else to explain it to you in astrological terms...i tried.sun(1st chart) has separated from jupiter and about to change sign.so in case he could transfer's jupiter's light to saturn that gives 2 not 4 units of time, what you could say though in the 2nd chart also is that saturn collects sun and moon, so whatever this saturn represents (in this case either the house of the querent or cat as natural sig , not almuten...**) brings sun (this man) and the moon (querent) together .even in the 2nd chart sun finds jupiter by contrantiscion , neither we have tol through antiscia , cause antiscia has no light to begin with, its a shadow and as such cannot transfer light....etc
and do we agree here that the cat is jupiter and the house of the querent is saturn or not? so why can't you understand when we simply say that jupiter aspects ic but not saturn?Or moon aspects jupiter? etc...
this is so obvious, so why do you desperately try to prove things that cannot be proved astrologically?

did you said 4 cause you count it the degree between Jupiter and Saturn? this is what i am telling you, we cant do this... BOTH PLANETS ARE MOVING BACKWARDS, SO SATURN(SLOWER PLANET) CANNOT REACH JUPITER .NEITHER JUPITER(LIGHTER PLANET) WHICH IS GOING BACKWARDS CAN REACH SATURN

we cant invent our own astrological terms or rules just to prove our point, every time we are wrong...obviously in every chart eventually every planet will aspect another, but we can't say sun tols jupiter to saturn , or jupiter will aspect saturn in aquarious in november-december lol..and if that was the case then the querent should have to wait till then to see his cat again

I am sorry i am not trying to offend you , but you are totally wrong.

I just had to say some things so other members here can understand.

Be well :love:

*** about calculating time!!!!! What concerns us is not the distance the applying planet must travel to reach the position of the other planet as it is in the chart. What concerns us is the distance the applying planet must travel to perfect the aspect. For this, you will need to consult your ephemeris.

****about almuten since you mentioned above:

kalinka :Re:"in my opinion Saturn gave the time (not only the location where the cat is) in both charts because he's the Almuten. Jup/Saturn=4days.Moon/Saturn=2day"

almuten has nothing to do with such a question, we dont need to find an extra significator for the cat, we have already her accidental ruler jupiter and the natural one which is always saturn.if we needed an almuten of house 6th cusp then this is not saturn obviously.is jupiter in both charts
in case you were speaking about 4th house, you dont need to find an almuten for house 4th , cause saturn is already the ruler of 4th house
 
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I'm glad to hear that -happy end!

Did not have time to read and reply but

we can always count on Aria :)
I agree - and thank you Aria Venue for generously giving your time
providing freely your detailed analysis! :smile:
it is of great value to all of us learners
 
Hi,
*** about calculating time!!!!! ...What concerns us is the distance the applying planet must travel to perfect the aspect. [/U][/B]For this, you will need to consult your ephemeris.
This is absolutely correct. When counting, you cannot count the time units by taking into account the change of signs by the relevant planets.

However, that said, I understand the intuition part also. I have had moments where I have felt very strongly despite the applying bit not holding good. In such a case, I would just not have an explanation for what I say. And, sometimes, there are things that cannot be explained - in literal terms.
 
Akera AriesVenue, Kalinka,

Just out of curiosity...

..I have a question about the reading, it involves appointing significators to connect the activity of locating the cat via the stranger, (Man or Woman of the 9th house) to the querent. The Ascendant is personal initiative energy, she is represented by Venus whom is retrograde. (Mercury is the natural lord of the 6th house and small animals-they are moving to conjunction-(there is resonance in Jupiter's 9th house for his involvement in retrieval of the cat).

The Ascendant lord Venus retraces (retrograde) steps to go back to areas where the cat may have trodden, area's of thouroughfair (9th H.C.) to tourists and travelers. (An additional question, was there any public acclimation to others in the area to help find the animal, 9th house could be flyers in the area, friends among foreigners etc) Example: a foreigner intervens and plays an important role to returning the cat back to the owner.

The Cardinal angles qualify the timing faster than normal time reference given in the map, (4 weeks turning into 4 days), bc of all of the angles being in Cardinal signs, which is very fast actvity to be expected.

The Moon is in fixed Taurus, exalted, the cat is ruled of the Moon a beloved animal, whilst she is very close to 'sudden acting' Uranus in-'fall' in Taurus but he is in mutual reception with one of the cats rulers (Jupiter in Cardinal Capricorn (gives faster movment to timing also, Jup. being in an angle, very strong) Jupiter in detriment in Capricorn makes the exchange expression with Uranus obliged in lordship in Capricorn (dignified). Jupiter is in 'harmony' in Taurus where Uranus is in his fall, (Doris Chase Doone-Modern Horary) activating several influences of energies that could give another insight to answer the question to faster timing other than cadent Venus moving to dignified Mercury-lending to a positive outcome for an answer of yes, the cat will come back. (Uranus stands for an individual appearing out of nowhere equaling secret eery circumstances (8th house), for the cat to be returned by an unknown Human element suddenly).

The bridging of time can be seen by a number of factors-planets moving to aspect the significator Jupiter..one of them being the Moon's last aspect to trine him = yes, answering the question, 'Will Jake come back?'

The Ascendant moves quickly (qualifies Venus in Gemini-Venus rules cats also) in the 'face' (decante) of Cardinal sign Libra/Aquarius, involving 'sudden' Uranus. The timing involves considerations of Jupiter retro in an angle in a Cardinal sign (lord of the 6th house = Jake the cat) with populace Pluto near him in the angle for timing. Each could describe influences pertaining to areas surrounding the neighboring vicinity and the owners house.

I realize this is hindsight to answering the question, but I see several elements within the first chart (rather than using the 2nd map to answer the question with any better insight than the first is able to reveal) that could have solved the question with a positive outcome, as you did for the owner utilizing the second chart. Did you consider the first chart in light of the salent factors I used above?

I appreciate any additonal feedback you may give on the consideration mentioned here, in 'The case of the missing cat..Jake".

Thank you
Sincerely
Student of Astrology
 
My dear Aria :) you're repeating your arguments, which are, as I said, totally right. I agree with you. And also as I already said, in this chart I simply count the degree between Jupiter and Saturn because it was my intuition to do that. What I usually wouldn't do.
 
My dear Aria :) you're repeating your arguments, which are, as I said, totally right. I agree with you. And also as I already said, in this chart I simply count the degree between Jupiter and Saturn because it was my intuition to do that. What I usually wouldn't do.

no worries kallinka:smile:, i had to repeat them cause you insisted on the saturn-jupiter aspect that's all . i was simply trying to explain to you and others that astrologically there's no reasoning behind this claim, or behind tol, or even almuten.

You know that rarely i respond to threads to correct others, even when i see something totally wrong(astrologically)written and i do this out of respect of others (i am not the " teacher " or the police in this forum, nor i want to "play" it as i am the smarter one).But if they respond to something that i've already justified, then obviously i have to respond, always mentioning astrological facts.So please by no means consider my respond as i am trying to offend you in any way.We all make mistakes and after all we can only improve through recognizing them

what i previously said has nothing to do with a different approach (modern vs traditional), i simply stated some basic facts which have to do with how we calculate time in general, when we say an aspect perfects etc...

About intuition in interpreting horary charts: personally i avoid making hypothetical assumptions, not only cause i was trained not to do that, but mainly cause in real terms this is not an astrological delineation :smile:

be well:love:
 
...About intuition in interpreting horary charts: personally i avoid making hypothetical assumptions, not only cause i was trained not to do that, but mainly cause in real terms this is not an astrological delineation :smile:
Not to offend, but firstly intuition is not equal hypothetical assumptions. Shocked and sad to hear this definition.

Secondly, no trainer should ever train their trainees to not use their intuition as part of the divination called Astrology. In my books, such a trainer/teacher would be a complete no-go. :(

Intuition is something which one either has and is aware of or not.
 
Not to offend, but firstly intuition is not equal hypothetical assumptions. Shocked and sad to hear this definition.

Secondly, no trainer should ever train their trainees to not use their intuition as part of the divination called Astrology. In my books, such a trainer/teacher would be a complete no-go. :(

Intuition is something which one either has and is aware of or not.

Not to offend either, but delineating a chart based on my intuition is not astrology.
That being said my dear aquarius, "intuition" tells me that "your books" are not related to horary or traditional astrology.
 
Not to offend either, but delineating a chart based on my intuition is not astrology.
That being said my dear aquarius, "intuition" tells me that "your books" are not related to horary or traditional astrology.
Astrology is divination and cannot be separated from intuition. Most Astrologers in olden days used intuition. It was not even something you needed to mention, that is how normal and accepted it was. Intuition is not a switch you turned on or off when practising Astrology. Not to derail the thread completely, I will leave this at this. Anyway.
 
no worries kallinka:smile:, i had to repeat them cause you insisted on the saturn-jupiter aspect that's all . i was simply trying to explain to you and others that astrologically there's no reasoning behind this claim, or behind tol, or even almuten.

You know that rarely i respond to threads to correct others, even when i see something totally wrong(astrologically)written and i do this out of respect of others (i am not the " teacher " or the police in this forum, nor i want to "play" it as i am the smarter one).But if they respond to something that i've already justified, then obviously i have to respond, always mentioning astrological facts.So please by no means consider my respond as i am trying to offend you in any way.We all make mistakes and after all we can only improve through recognizing them


what i previously said has nothing to do with a different approach (modern vs traditional), i simply stated some basic facts which have to do with how we calculate time in general, when we say an aspect perfects etc...


About intuition in interpreting horary charts: personally i avoid making hypothetical assumptions, not only cause i was trained not to do that, but mainly cause in real terms this is not an astrological delineation
:smile:

be well:love:
Not to offend, but firstly intuition is not equal hypothetical assumptions. Shocked and sad to hear this definition.

Secondly, no trainer should ever train their trainees to not use their intuition as part of the divination called Astrology.
In my books, such a trainer/teacher would be a complete no-go. :(

Intuition is something which one either has
and is aware of
or not.
DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF "INTUTION"
noun:
".....the ability to understand something instinctively
without the need for conscious reasoning.
a thing that one knows
or
considers likely
from instinctive feeling
rather than conscious reasoning...." :smile:


HORARY ASTROLOGY DEPENDS ON ABILITY FOR CONSCIOUS REASONING

Not to offend either, but delineating a chart based on my intuition
is not astrology.
That being said my dear aquarius, "intuition" tells me that "your books" are not related to horary or traditional astrology.
Horary astrology is based on traditional astrology
and the use of considerable conscious reasoning

Astrology is divination and cannot be separated from intuition.
Most Astrologers in olden days used intuition.
It was not even something you needed to mention
that is how normal and accepted it was.
Intuition is not a switch you turned on or off when practising Astrology.
Not to derail the thread completely, I will leave this at this.
Anyway.

DEFINITION OF ASTROLOGER
https://theastrologypodcast.com/2012/08/25/the-definition-of-astrologer-with-nick-dagan-best/


WHAT IS ASTROLOGY - podcast fundamental principles
https://www.youtube.com/user/RyansVedicAstrology
 
Astrology is divination and cannot be separated from intuition. Most Astrologers in olden days used intuition. It was not even something you needed to mention, that is how normal and accepted it was. Intuition is not a switch you turned on or off when practising Astrology. Not to derail the thread completely, I will leave this at this. Anyway.

There is a popular misconception that astrology is best defined as divination. However, while divination is seen as a part of astrology, this term does not cover all of the many branches and practices of astrology. In fact, no astrologer nor any scholar who has studied astrology seriously would define the entire field of astrology as divination.

Astrology is not widely defined as divination by expert sources
Though standard definitions vary with astrology defined as an art, study, practice, method, system and divination, 'study' seems to be the predominant dictionary definition. In addition, scholars and astrologers rarely label the field of astrology as divination.

== Definitions of Divination ==

Divination, the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers. Meriam-Websters on line (2011)

Divination, n. the art or practice of divining; seeking to know the future or hidden things by supernatural means; instinctive prediction; prediction; conjecture. Divine vt, to foresee or foretell as if divinely inspired; to guess or make out; to prognosticate; to make divine (Spenser); L. divines from divus, deus a god]. Chambers Dictionary, 11th edition (2010)

Divination, n. supposed insight into the future or the unknown gained by supernatural means. Oxford Compact English Dictionary, OUP (1996)
Divination, n., the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means. From Latin divinare to predict. Oxford Dictionary of English, OUP (2006)

Divination, n., the ability to say what will happen in the future or the act of doing this. Longmans, Dictionary of Contemporary English, Pearson Education Ltd. (2010)

Divination , n 1. the art, practice or gift of discerning or discovering future events or unknown things, as though by supernatural powers 2. a prophecy 3. a presentiment or guess Collins English Dictionary (2010)

Divination, the art of discovering future events as though by supernatural powers. Harper Collins, Essential Dictionary and Thesaurus (2007)


What do the polls say?
When asked whether free will can modify planetary influences, 97% of 250 astrologers surveyed said yes.
Source: Moore, Marcia (1960) A Socio-Psychological Survey Astrology Today
In a survey of 783 astrologers at conferences in UK, USA, Serbia, Norway, Argentina and Brazil during 1999-2011 elicited the following responses:

56% Astrology predicts the future
87% Astrology is a language
50% Astrology is a science
42% Astrology is divination
8% Astrology is a religion
Source: Campion, Nicholas (2012) Astrology and Popular Religion in Modern West pp.175-178

http://www.astrology.co.uk/tests/divination.htm
 
Intution means, to use a natural ruler instead of the accidental ruler, for example. And I'm looking for all indications not only at a single one. Mercury/Venus conjunction would probably match better as timer. And when I'm turning the chart into the sidereal zodiac with whole sign houses, the cat is here Saturn L6 and Jupiter is L4. Mercury is asc-ruler but makes no aspect to Saturn.Moon also doesn't.Moon is actually voc. Saturn and Jupiter are in the same house and the same sign. Hence Sun translates the light from Jupiter to Saturn. Sun is L12 and sitting in the 9th house with Venus and Mercury. Mercury is weak and only make an aspect with Saturn by houses, which is enough if Mercury is in direct aspect with a strong third Planet-in this case Venus (in Taurus and ruler of the 9th). So the chart is almost the same. Both querent and quesited needed helpers. we have 3 time options. Sun and Saturn =2Degrees, Mercury/Venus=3-4 Degrees, Saturn/Jupiter=4-5 Degree. What option to chose? Intuitively 4 Degrees.
If I would look at the chart with the stellar system, I might come to a more precise time. In any way-the time is given in the chart.Even if my timer was wrong.
 
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Intution means,

to use a natural ruler instead of the accidental ruler, for example.
on the contrary:
DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF "INTUTION"
noun:
".....the ability to understand something instinctively
without the need for conscious reasoning.
a thing that one knows
or
considers likely
from instinctive feeling
rather than conscious reasoning...." :smile:


HORARY ASTROLOGY DEPENDS ON ABILITY FOR CONSCIOUS REASONING
And I'm looking for all indications not only at a single one
Mercury/Venus conjunction would probably match better as timer. And when I'm turning the chart into the sidereal zodiac with whole sign houses, the cat is here Saturn L6 and Jupiter is L4. Mercury is asc-ruler but makes no aspect to Saturn.Moon also doesn't.Moon is actually voc. Saturn and Jupiter are in the same house and the same sign. Hence Sun translates the light from Jupiter to Saturn. Sun is L12 and sitting in the 9th house with Venus and Mercury. Mercury is weak and only make an aspect with Saturn by houses, which is enough if Mercury is in direct aspect with a strong third Planet-in this case Venus (in Taurus and ruler of the 9th). So the chart is almost the same. Both querent and quesited needed helpers. we have 3 time options. Sun and Saturn =2Degrees, Mercury/Venus=3-4 Degrees, Saturn/Jupiter=4-5 Degree. What option to chose? Intuitively 4 Degrees.
If I would look at the chart with the stellar system, I might come to a more precise time. In any way-the time is given in the chart.
all of the above uses CONSCIOUS REASONING :smile:
 
You can call or define it as you want. I said that I did not mistakenly, means conscious,use the degree between Saturn and Jupiter because my feeling was to use it as timer.
 
You can call or define it as you want.
thanks :smile:

the DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF "INTUTION" is:
noun:
".....the ability to understand something instinctively
without the need for conscious reasoning.
a thing that one knows
or
considers likely
from instinctive feeling
rather than conscious reasoning...." :smile:


HORARY ASTROLOGY DEPENDS ON ABILITY FOR CONSCIOUS REASONING
I said that I did not mistakenly,
means conscious,use the degree between Saturn and Jupiter
because my feeling was to use it as timer.
HORARY astrology uses CONSCIOUS REASONING RULES
 
Intution means, to use a natural ruler instead of the accidental ruler, for example. And I'm looking for all indications not only at a single one. Mercury/Venus conjunction would probably match better as timer. And when I'm turning the chart into the sidereal zodiac with whole sign houses, the cat is here Saturn L6 and Jupiter is L4. Mercury is asc-ruler but makes no aspect to Saturn.Moon also doesn't.Moon is actually voc. Saturn and Jupiter are in the same house and the same sign. Hence Sun translates the light from Jupiter to Saturn. Sun is L12 and sitting in the 9th house with Venus and Mercury. Mercury is weak and only make an aspect with Saturn by houses, which is enough if Mercury is in direct aspect with a strong third Planet-in this case Venus (in Taurus and ruler of the 9th). So the chart is almost the same. Both querent and quesited needed helpers. we have 3 time options. Sun and Saturn =2Degrees, Mercury/Venus=3-4 Degrees, Saturn/Jupiter=4-5 Degree. What option to chose? Intuitively 4 Degrees.
If I would look at the chart with the stellar system, I might come to a more precise time. In any way-the time is given in the chart.Even if my timer was wrong.

Kallinka i am sorry but i can't follow

Checking also the natural ruler for the cat and not only the accidental one, is not intuition, but a common approach in horary in lost animals or objects, for the same reason we also rarely use moon ...etc. However "intuition" would have been to say that you knew "instinctively" that the querent will find his lost cat in 4 days, still you couldn't justify this astrologically.

That being said,are we all referring to the charts in this thread or charts you cast based on sidereal? I would kindly ask you, if possible not to mix different Technics or charts, so we can all speak the same language and communicate, especially since in this thread the charts are based on tropical.So what do you mean "to use a natural ruler instead of the accidental ruler, for example. And I'm looking for all indications not only at a single one. Mercury/Venus conjunction would probably match better as timer."?
which is the natural ruler you are referring to? why would Mercury/Venus conjunction give the time? what is mercury? and what is venus? in which chart and according to tropical or sidereal?
 
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