Mars in Pisces

[sibylline]

Thanks Sibilyne! Something that just crossed my mind is my own Mars in the 12th house and how I'm sensitive to criticism... when someone disagrees with my viewpoints I then feel like it's not okay to express myself and it leads to resentment (that part isn't for discussion but more to make a pathway for part II) Part II: If Mars in the 12th is akin to Mars in the Pisces, then is it fair to say Mars in Pisces seeks approval from others vs. other Mars placements?

Well, Mars in 12th isn't akin to Mars in Pisces. You might notice some similarities with houses and signs but if I were you I wouldn't start equating them wholesale because you'll start coming to erroneous conclusions, then confusing yourself, then frustrating yourself when reality doesn't fit your interpretations, etc.

Mars in Pisces may or may not seek approval from others, it depends. If Mars is rising in the 1st then the person likes to make their own decisions and may even be rash and headstrong, not waiting for others to approve and not caring if they ever do. Similarly with Mars culminating/10th; they will want to forge their own path and won't want others directing them, whether directly or indirectly. Mars conjunct Jupiter, like this person has, believes in the effectiveness of their own actions. All of this is generally speaking of course. We don't know what this person's chart looks like beyond placements but from those alone I'd say they are much more individualistic and independent.

 

[waybread]

So, because you don't agree with my interpretation of a *facet* of a sign - that's bad astrology? Interesting.

He does have Mercury square Mars in Pisces, thank you for pointing that out!

LMA, it's not just me who would disagree with your interpretation. If you like I can quote you delineations of Pisces Mars from highly respected professional astrologers.

To start with one, Robert Hand, Planets in Youth says of Mars in Pisces, that the natives are sensitive, tend to be low-energy, need a lot of sleep, find it hard to be self-assertive, get uncomfortable around dominant people, and tend to act unselfishly.

The closest he comes to "lying" is in saying that Mars in Pisces people seek to avoid conflict, and so may do things without telling people. This doesn't necessarily mean they're lying: they may simply not disclose what the dominant person wants to know.

If you think a Pisces Mars person isn't straight with you, look inward to see whether, from his perspective, you might be described as trying to dominate him.

I've got other delineations from my book collection, if you're interested.

Someone very much in the news just now, Donald Trump, also has Mercury square Neptune. See what you think about his accuracy in communication.

 

[waybread]

LMA, you'd also want to see what else is going on with this person's Mars. If it's at a late degree and conjunct the sun in early Aries, for example, that would strengthen it. If it's trine Pluto in Scorpio, that would strengthen it. A sextile from Jupiter with that Mercury square might encourage him to exaggerate the truth.

My natal Mars is opposed by Saturn in Virgo. I learned at a young age that there were punishing consequences for lying, and I've never felt comfortable about it.

Mars is not only "what you pursue," but it can be spontaneous anger, athleticism, or serving in the military.

 

[katydid]

Among the keyword meanings for Pisces are things like: 'EVASIVE', NEBULOUS, VACILLATION.

I would say that Mars in Pisces can be seen as dishonest at times, in terms of not being direct or clear. Also by things be being hidden, and lying by 'omission' of facts.

I know several Mars in Pisces natives and a few are kind of shady when it comes to total honesty and forthrightness. They will actively shade the truth, and offer up denials and alibis for their close friends/loved ones, because of their unconditional love pacts perhaps.

 

[LovelyMissAries]

LMA, it's not just me who would disagree with your interpretation. If you like I can quote you delineations of Pisces Mars from highly respected professional astrologers.

To start with one, Robert Hand, Planets in Youth says of Mars in Pisces, that the natives are sensitive, tend to be low-energy, need a lot of sleep, find it hard to be self-assertive, get uncomfortable around dominant people, and tend to act unselfishly.

The closest he comes to "lying" is in saying that Mars in Pisces people seek to avoid conflict, and so may do things without telling people. This doesn't necessarily mean they're lying: they may simply not disclose what the dominant person wants to know.

If you think a Pisces Mars person isn't straight with you, look inward to see whether, from his perspective, you might be described as trying to dominate him.

I've got other delineations from my book collection, if you're interested.

Someone very much in the news just now, Donald Trump, also has Mercury square Neptune. See what you think about his accuracy in communication.

Sigh. I feel like my entire point is getting missed, so I'll try again:

Yes, I'm sure there are other sources to back up your beliefs just as I could probably find sources to back up mine. I'm not saying Pisces is onlya liar and always will be. That's just plain silly!

You said I was conflating the meanings behind Neptune, Mars in the 12th house, and Mars in Pisces but Robert Hand's interpretation of Mars in Pisces is parallel to what I've read about Mars in the 12th house, so where is the problem in that regard? Their expression (Mars in the 12th and Mars in Pisces) seems pretty interchangeable.

I understand what you're saying about Mars in Pisces shrinking away from someone who is aggressive. I have Mars in the 12th, I react the same way to people who come on too strong. That very reason is why I'm sensitive to how I come off to people I'm interested in getting to know better. That, plus this person's reactions to me lead me to believe I am not "dominating" him in any fashion. A further side note would be that I mentioned his Mars aspecting Pluto and how that made a difference, but so far we've been stuck on this.

The crux of this discussion is figuring out what constitutes as "lying". You don't see omission as dishonest - I do, and therein lies an impasse.

 

[LovelyMissAries]

Sibilyne (or others) - if Pluto strengthens Mars, does Mars sextiling Neptune neutralize that strength just because it's softer? What about the fact some aspects are applying and some are separating, does that add or take away strength?

 

[waybread]

I am just shaking my head at the notion of Mars in Pisces as lying.

My husband and I live in Canada close enough to the US border that we go through the border periodically. Many people fudge on declaring their purchases or what they are taking through with them, when they face the customs official.

Most recently we needed some expensive RV repairs, and the nearest service center for our particular model is in the US. South we went, and had them done. The repairs looked great, and if we hadn't declared them (parts +labor) coming back to Canada, the agent would have been none the wiser. But good scouts that we are, we declared the repairs, and forked over $350 in taxes (duty) at the border.

How many of you would have done this?

So don't tell me that Mars in Pisces is a signature for lying.

What I will say is that I also value my privacy. There have been times in my life when I took a real NOYB approach to people who somehow thought they had a perfect right to the details of my difficult marital separation, divorce, single status, engagement, and remarriage. Had these people been in my corner, I might have felt differently and confided in them, but they were not. So far as I could determine, they merely hoped for juicy gossip to spread around the office. I owed none of these people an explanation and if they found the protection of my and my children's privacy to be "evasive," that is on their head, not mine.

Lovely Miss Aries, is it possible the man in question doesn't feel obligated to be monitored by you?

From Skye Alexander, Planets in Signs on Mars in Pisces:

unassertive, shy, passive, peace-loving, turning the other cheek. Sensitivity to others' feelings. Willing to fight on behalf of the oppressed. Private, inner-directed, introspective, Susceptable to illness, allergies.

Men with this placement may feel insecure about their sexuality. Idealistic, romantic. Women attracted to the "sensitive guy." Overly idealistic, apt to be disappointed.

Not a word here about lying, evasion, or deception.

Speaking as a Mars in Pisces, I don't embody all of the above. Sun conjunct Mars helps out with vitality, for example.

 

[waybread]

Sigh. I feel like my entire point is getting missed, so I'll try again:

Yes, I'm sure there are other sources to back up your beliefs just as I could probably find sources to back up mine. I'm not saying Pisces is onlya liar and always will be. That's just plain silly!

You said I was conflating the meanings behind Neptune, Mars in the 12th house, and Mars in Pisces but Robert Hand's interpretation of Mars in Pisces is parallel to what I've read about Mars in the 12th house, so where is the problem in that regard? Their expression (Mars in the 12th and Mars in Pisces) seems pretty interchangeable.

I understand what you're saying about Mars in Pisces shrinking away from someone who is aggressive. I have Mars in the 12th, I react the same way to people who come on too strong. That very reason is why I'm sensitive to how I come off to people I'm interested in getting to know better. That, plus this person's reactions to me lead me to believe I am not "dominating" him in any fashion. A further side note would be that I mentioned his Mars aspecting Pluto and how that made a difference, but so far we've been stuck on this.

The crux of this discussion is figuring out what constitutes as "lying". You don't see omission as dishonest - I do, and therein lies an impasse.

Too many modern astrologers conflate planets, signs, and houses. They are not the same. A planet works like a noun in a sentence, the "what." A sign is like an adjective or adverb: it indicates "how" or in "what manner" a planet operates. A house works like a prepositional phrase. It shows "where" or in what "domain of life" a planet operates. An aspect shows how pairs of planets operate.

Each planet has rulerships. Mercury rules liars, not Mars. Mars rules one's assertiveness and aggression. I hope we're clear on that. So no, lying is not a quality of Mars, independent of its sign. The chart you posted shows Mercury square Mars and Mars conjunct Jupiter. Jupiter expands what it touches, so it can give a propensity to exaggerate.

Lovely Miss Aries, I don't know how you would rate your ability to synthesize a chart, but that is what you need to do to determine how a planet operates. You have to get beyond planets-in-signs and planets-in-houses. Maybe you
do this already, and if so, I'm sorry.

What does your Mars aspect?

Basically the 12th house deals with matters that are hidden to us, or obscured to us, even though they might be highly obvious to everyone else. Sometimes this hidden quality is a choice, because the 12th deals with people who are voluntarily sequestered, like monks in a monastary. It deals with people who are involuntarily shut-in, like prisoners and hospital patients. Traditionally the 12th dealt with "secret enemies" (i. e., enemies who are hidden from your view) unlike the 7th house enemies who are the ones you know about.

So with Mars in the 12th, you may not be clear about your natural assertiveness and aggression. You may obscure it from view, or try to. You may come across as aggressive to others even when you do not intend to. Donald Trump's Mars is in the 12th house conjunct his ascendant, for example!

Pluto is a powerful planet, so in the chart of interest, it can make the person more assertive than we would otherwise expect. Pluto has an underworld connotation, due to its being named for the Roman god of the underworld. While this could come across as deception, here's the thing.

You'd expect planets to operate in the domain of life (house) and in the manner (sign) of the horoscope, with modifications according to aspecting planets; or perhaps the essential dignities and debilities.

Maybe it would be easier if you indicated what you think Mr. Pisces Mars is lying about.

Whether or not "omission" is lying depends on the circumstances. If you're developing a romantic relationship with a man and he doesn't tell you he's married, that's deceptive. If it's an invasion of his privacy, he's under no obligation to divulge.

 

[Frisiangal]

The crux of this discussion is figuring out what constitutes as "lying". You don't see omission as dishonest - I do, and therein lies an impasse.

Would 'escaping the truth' be similar to omission be similar to lying?

Imho there is a big difference between the two. If I fail to state all the facts, am I necessarily lying?
When proof through fact shows that I exaggerated upon the truth, then I am lying.
To lie, there must be a communication of thought through the written or spoken word. As already stated by Waybread, this is the function of Mercury and not Mars.
In the chart shown Mercury is unaspected. Unaspected planets have a tendency to under/over compensate its function.
There is a pre-dominance of Sagittarius as well as its ruler, Jupiter, conjunct Mars. 'Over exaggeration' of Mars (trine Pluto) action might come easily.
As well as the possible bi-polar effect, harsh Jupiter-Saturn aspects, and/or/with a link to Sagittarius have been noted as being 'more than average' in charts of those with pathological disorder tendencies.

Jupiter/Sagittarian 'Trust' is something else and can easily be mistaken for lying, honesty, and omission of truth by those on the receiving end of it.

I do agree that there is much discussion between its users regarding the if's, but's, and and's of astrological symbolism.

[Edit: Missed page 2 of this discussion.]

 

[katydid]

Would 'escaping the truth' be similar to omission be similar to lying?

Imho there is a big difference between the two. If I fail to state all the facts, am I necessarily lying?
When proof through fact shows that I exaggerated upon the truth, then I am lying.
To lie, there must be a communication of thought through the written or spoken word. As already stated by Waybread, this is the function of Mercury and not Mars.
In the chart shown Mercury is unaspected. Unaspected planets have a tendency to under/over compensate its function.
There is a pre-dominance of Sagittarius as well as its ruler, Jupiter, conjunct Mars. 'Over exaggeration' of Mars (trine Pluto) action might come easily.
As well as the possible bi-polar effect, harsh Jupiter-Saturn aspects, and/or/with a link to Sagittarius have been noted as being 'more than average' in charts of those with pathological disorder tendencies.

Jupiter/Sagittarian 'Trust' is something else and can easily be mistaken for lying, honesty, and omission of truth by those on the receiving end of it.

[Edit: Missed page 2 of this discussion.]

But if one purposely omits some facts, in an effort to hide something important, then it is the same as lying, mercury or not. If someone takes off their wedding band when they meet you for coffee for example---isn't that a form of 'lying?'
A Mars in Pisces, which might be evasive or purposely omitting certain info, can be deceitful, in my opinion. Even without the help of Mercury.

 

[anjelik]

Would 'escaping the truth' be similar to omission be similar to lying?

Imho there is a big difference between the two. If I fail to state all the facts, am I necessarily lying?

In my opinion, absolutely. Choosing to not include information because it would incriminate you is still lying because you are not being 100% truthful. People who do that in my eyes are considered sneaky and untrustworthy. So what you're essentially saying is that if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it then it doesn't make a sound.

 

[LovelyMissAries]

Would 'escaping the truth' be similar to omission be similar to lying

It's dichotomy...there's no gray area between "escaping the truth" and lying...if you're not telling the truth, and you're not lying - what other option is there?

Imho there is a big difference between the two. If I fail to state all the facts, am I necessarily lying?

Would the facts not stated alter how the statement is made? For example, you tell your SO you were late because of traffic, which is true, but really you were late because of traffic AND running into your ex at the grocery store. There's a difference in how each "truth" would be perceived.

 

[Frisiangal]

It's dichotomy...there's no gray area between "escaping the truth" and lying...if you're not telling the truth, and you're not lying - what other option is there?

Yet I didn't write 'not telling the truth'; you did. Maybe 'avoiding the truth' may have been better?

Would the facts not stated alter how the statement is made? For example, you tell your SO you were late because of traffic, which is true, but really you were late because of traffic AND running into your ex at the grocery store. There's a difference in how each "truth" would be perceived

This is an example of someone simply not stating all the facts; not being 100% truthful (who is???) by adding that the stoplights were against them, they ran into a neighbour and chatted about the lottery, helped an old lady cross the road, etc.etc.; therefore they are lying???? I think not. Rather that it's talking to the ex that may have got someone riled and 'avoiding the truth' was better for the late-comer!

Katydid wrote:

But if one purposely omits some facts, in an effort to hide something important, then it is the same as lying, mercury or not. If someone takes off their wedding band when they meet you for coffee for example---isn't that a form of 'lying?' A Mars in Pisces, which might be evasive or purposely omitting certain info, can be deceitful, in my opinion. Even without the help of Mercury

I see what you are implying. A non-verbal (Mercury) but 'doing action'(Mars) can be deceptive in itself, and the act of deception is (the same as) lying.
Would it only be Mars in Pisces that is capable of deception, or the sign itself and any planet in it?

 

[katydid]

Yet I didn't write 'not telling the truth'; you did. Maybe 'avoiding the truth' may have been better?



This is an example of someone simply not stating all the facts; not being 100% truthful (who is???) by adding that the stoplights were against them, they ran into a neighbour and chatted about the lottery, helped an old lady cross the road, etc.etc.; therefore they are lying???? I think not. Rather that it's talking to the ex that may have got someone riled and 'avoiding the truth' was better for the late-comer!

Katydid wrote:

I see what you are implying. A non-verbal (Mercury) but 'doing action'(Mars) can be deceptive in itself, and the act of deception is (the same as) lying.
Would it only be Mars in Pisces that is capable of deception, or the sign itself and any planet in it?

Not only Mars, but the OP was asking specifically about Mars.

And the planet Mars represents 'ambitions, goals, desires' etc. So it has a sense of motivation and the impetus for action.

And Pisces can be evasive, nebulous and kind of shady energy. I call it 'squishy' in the way it sometimes blurs some lines...

I am not saying that Mars in Pisces are deceitful types. Just saying that they can be...

 

[LovelyMissAries]

I am not saying that Mars in Pisces are deceitful types. Just saying that they can be...

I've BEEN saying that. It doesn't matter, they want to keep driving their point home - let them. It's entertaining.

 

[waybread]

It's dichotomy...there's no gray area between "escaping the truth" and lying...if you're not telling the truth, and you're not lying - what other option is there?



Would the facts not stated alter how the statement is made? For example, you tell your SO you were late because of traffic, which is true, but really you were late because of traffic AND running into your ex at the grocery store. There's a difference in how each "truth" would be perceived.

This seems terribly intrusive. If you inquire about intimate details of my marriage or my bank account and I think it's NOYB, my declining to answer your questions is merely sensible.

Outright lying has a deliberate quality to it. You know what is true and willfully say something else.

With a half-truth, look at the consequences, as in the guy not telling his new GF that he's married. Deceptive, for sure.

If I ran into my ex at the grocery store, I would say hello and leave it at that. It wouldn't make me late.

 

[LovelyMissAries]

This seems terribly intrusive. If you inquire about intimate details of my marriage or my bank account and I think it's NOYB, my declining to answer your questions is merely sensible.

Outright lying has a deliberate quality to it. You know what is true and willfully say something else.

With a half-truth, look at the consequences, as in the guy not telling his new GF that he's married. Deceptive, for sure.

If I ran into my ex at the grocery store, I would say hello and leave it at that. It wouldn't make me late.

Yeah you're right.

 

[Bunraku]

The chart has an unknown birth time, so the houses are useless but here it is!

I looked for aspects to Neptune because I find that often the case in people I catch lying, as much as I hate aspect stereotypes, but there aren't any. Sag Sun, Aries Moon and Venus in Scorpio I figure this person is either a very bad exaggerator or incredibly blunt.

Wow I am loving this chart

 

[LovelyMissAries]

Wow I am loving this chart

ME TOO! Him and I get along really well

 

[waybread]

Katydid, just to keep on entertaining you two, you really need to see what else is going on in the chart of your Pisces Mars acquaintances. I know you're a good enough astrologer to do that. Again, look at Mercury. Maybe there's some affliction going on with Neptune, but a well aspected Neptune, as the modern ruler of Pisces, probably doesn't give a congenital liar.

I also wonder whether you're a Scorpio (I honestly don't recall seeing your chart,) or whether LMA might have a Scorpio moon or a troubled Venus or something. I mention Scorpio because it loves having its own secrets, but wants to ferret out other people's; and is inclined to jealousy and the desire for control in a relationship.

Sometimes it is entirely appropriate for other people just to say, "back off!" or to decline to answer a question that they find too intrusive. Some people value their privacy and do not feel the need to tell an invasive questioner everything she wants to hear. If they do not wish to confront the questioner, perhaps out of sensitivity to her feelings, she may well find them evasive, but really she was the insensitive one.

Not everyone enjoys being monitored. I don't blame them. Consequently I don't find Pisces people to be "evasive, nebulous [with a ]kind of shady energy,...'squishy.'" I find them to be more private and sensitive than most; often idealistic.

But compared to a sun-Mercury Aries or a moon in Scorpio or a brash and brassy Sagittarian, well sure. These types tend to be either very direct; or in the case of Scorpio, they want to know your secrets without revealing any of their own.

If any of these shoes fit.....