Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

[tsmall]

Interesting that Vettius Valens states:
"... Jupiter rules childbearing... of the internal parts Jupiter rules the uterus"

I note your natal Moon is Tropical Pisces and therefore Jupiter ruled

Venus, your ascendant ruler is the Exaltation ruler of Pisces

Furthermore, while the Moon is the Domicile ruler of your MC, Jupiter is the Exalted ruler of your MC

And Venus joys in the 5th. I love seeing traditional rulerships in action, and I especially love seeing the concept of exaltation rulers having practical value. When else is a mother most exalted, than when giving birth?

 

[JUPITERASC]

And Venus joys in the 5th. I love seeing traditional rulerships in action, and I especially love seeing the concept of exaltation rulers having practical value. When else is a mother most exalted, than when giving birth?

Exactly - IMO fwiw, when the timing of a birth is accurate THEN 'star talk' is precise, accurate and even poetic re: descriptiveness

The way I knew the ASC and MC degrees were just a teensy bit off was because the day my oldest was born (her) Venus was sextile my ASC, off just by 16'. This also made the sextile from (her) Venus to the cusp of my 5th off by 16'. Also, (her) transiting PoF conjuncted my MC/IC axis by a difference of 18'.

With number two, (her) Venus trined my Sun by a difference of 18', with (her) Sun conjunct my MC by a difference of 29'. Meanwhile, my Saturn (ruler of the 5th) was sextile (her) transiting PoF by a different of 29', and trine Mercury by 35'

fwiw IMO tsmall, MC ruler as well as aspects to MC/IC axis may well relate to changes in perception of you by the public - i.e. because you now appear as a mother.

Likewise changes/transformations involving roots/ancestry/the home reflect aspects to the IC

Lastly, with three, her North Node was opposing my Jupiter by 20' and sextile the cusp of my 5th by 20'....

A couple of things that I did notice when using childbirth to track timing of transits. In all the cases the nodal axis was activated, either my natal by transit, or transiting nodes to natal points.

I remember discussion on another thread regarding the many eclipse connections your chart has tsmall and of course the Nodal axis is linked to both solar and lunar eclipses

 

[Alice McDermott]

re: Trutine of Hermes

This touts something that cannot be verified by ordinary means. When we are rectifying for a valid, authentic Ascendant, we must use events and information gathered outside the field of astrology and especially its sub-mythologies, of which the Trutine is part. The very exacting, rigorous work of Alexander Marr relating to the principle of the pre-natal epoch, a birth chart must first be rectified and validated in order to even obtain it. So trying to use the Trutine (which aims to produce the pre-natal epoch) as a rectification tool is to put the cart before the horse

.

Do you have Marr's book Kannon? I had book 3 many, many years ago, which covered his work with the Pre-natal epoch, but discarded it because as far as my memory goes he didn't check out two very important pre-requistes before he started his research.

A. he didn't check if the births were natural i.e. no medical assistance. As the Tritune can't work at all if the birth wasn't natural I questioned his whole data.
B. he didn't check if the child was conceived in the same place as (s)he was born. This strongly affects the time between conception and birth.

Now I would like to go over his work again both to see if my memory is correct and to check his system, but can't find the book anywhere.

I agree that you need to have close to an exact time of birth before the Tritune of Hermes is accurate. I also work with the Parallax Moon, which can change the data at times.

Alice

 

[JUPITERASC]

One of the methods I believe outlined in the OP was to use exact times of specific events. Rather than having to wait for several new notable events to occur, and actually try to remember the times, I used the births of my three children since I know pretty close to exactly when they were born. I have all the particulars down, but I wanted to share a few things that I noticed.

The way I knew the ASC and MC degrees were just a teensy bit off was because the day my oldest was born (her) Venus was sextile my ASC, off just by 16'. This also made the sextile from (her) Venus to the cusp of my 5th off by 16'. Also, (her) transiting PoF conjuncted my MC/IC axis by a difference of 18'.

With number two, (her) Venus trined my Sun by a difference of 18', with (her) Sun conjunct my MC by a difference of 29'. Meanwhile, my Saturn (ruler of the 5th) was sextile (her) transiting PoF by a different of 29', and trine Mercury by 35'

PoF is considered most important in Hellenistic as well as traditional astrology. In fact the Education Board of this forum has guidance from Ray Austin entitled "The Five Lots of Fate, Success, Your Fortune Chart http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13197

Thank you for sharing these clear verifications of the basic method because fwiw IMO many basic as well as important astrological principles are highlighted by your data

Lastly, with three, her North Node was opposing my Jupiter by 20' and sextile the cusp of my 5th by 20'.

By adjusting my stated time of birth, 8:15, to 8:13 the aspects to the AC and MC lined up pretty close to perfectly, as did the aspects to the PoF. The reason I think including aspects to PoF is important is because fortune is the physical body, and fortune can only be found using the degree of the ASC.

A couple of things that I did notice when using childbirth to track timing of transits. In all the cases the nodal axis was activated, either my natal by transit, or transiting nodes to natal points. Also, in all cases the angles were involved, of course, as were the lights (funny enough, aspects to natal Sun for both daytime births and Moon for the nighttime one, with the middle daughter aspecting both lights.) Venus in two, but in all three the cusp of the 5th, or the ruler of the 5th played a role with an extremely close aspect. Lastly, Jupiter was involved in close aspect in all three.

Interesting also that the two sect lights, as Hellenistic astrologers designated the Sun and the Moon, are highlighted according to whether the births took place at night or in the day time. Interesting as well that for one of the three births, both sect lights play a leading role.

Sect is an Hellenistic concept. I did post some comments on sect previously on another thread and for those interested here's a basic explanation of sect that I gleaned information Robert Schmidts Project Hindsight work on Valens as well as from Professor Riley's translation of Valens http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius%20Valens%20entire.pdf and the ACT astrology forum at http://actastrology.com/viewforum.php?f=4 is a mine of useful and reliable information

The Hellenistic Concept of Sect: Sect is just one word for a group of people with a common interest forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice. e.g. a political party or faction united by common interests or beliefs especially concerned with their own narrow interests . Some planets belong to one sect, and some to the other. The two sects are diurnal and nocturnal – i.e. day and night.

The Sun is the leader of the diurnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Saturn and Jupiter.

The Moon is the leader of the nocturnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Mars and Venus.

If Mercury rises before the Sun—if he’s a morning star—then Mercury belongs to the diurnal sect.

But if Mercury sets after the Sun—if he’s an evening star—then Mercury belongs to the nocturnal sect.

So, those are the two sects, their leaders, and their members.

What sect signifies
What is meant by “being in sect” or “being in the sect of favour” is simply that planets are happiest if they are in an area of a natal chart that is in sync with their sect

So, for example, a nocturnal Mars is not going to be too happy in a diurnal chart and a diurnal Saturn is not going to be too happy in a nocturnal chart.

Similarly, in politics, two sects such as the Republicans and the Democrats each want to be in power and are unhappy and could potentially cause disruption for the other elected opposition party.

In the booklet "Night & Day, Planetary sect in Astrology", Robert Hand writes on page 6, second paragraph: "Although no ancient writing ever states this explicitly, it would seem from these writings that the most important of these relationships is that a planet is of the same sect as the chart. Diurnal planets work best in diurnal charts and nocturnal planets in nocturnal charts. That the condition of the chart is the most important of these three sect factors can be inferred from the fact that many of the Greek texts only mention the charts diurnal or nocturnal status in relation to the sect of the planet. Little is said about the agreement of the sect of the planet with that of the sign or placement".

 

[byjove]

I know some of the iron-clad events that people frequently rectify successfully with include child birth, marriage, deaths etc. what else would rank as a priority for rectification? Would many of the events listed in the opening post act has lesser guides? I might be footloose and fancy free for a while longer...

 

[JUPITERASC]

I know some of the iron-clad events that people frequently rectify successfully with include child birth, marriage, deaths etc. what else would rank as a priority for rectification? Would many of the events listed in the opening post act has lesser guides? I might be footloose and fancy free for a while longer...

Did you mean this section of the opening post byjove?

As a result of questions on a thread at this link http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51377 and because IMO it is common knowledge amongst astrologers that checking a natal chart for correlations with transits is a basic requirement for all charts because the basic requirement is that any natal chart is a 'working chart', this is a thread for anyone interested in very basic chart rectification.

BASIC STEPS
List major life events such as academic rewards, degree, diplomas, exams passed, operations, hospital admissions of any kind, accidents, relocation to a new home, relocation abroad, marriages, divorces, births, deaths, starting first job, leaving old job, starting new job, anything important.

When looking back at transits for major events in life, as well as noting all aspects from transiting planets to the angles, remember to note in particular aspects from all the rulers of the ASC/MC/IC/DESC to other planets as well as to the angles themselves

If you focus on the seven visible planets to begin with, then you'll find that you have more than enough aspects to cope with - especially if you have many exact dates of events to check!

Btw exclude dates that are "give or take a couple of weeks" as being totally too inaccurate!

Specific dates for major events means the actual exact day as well as the precise time of the occurrence

 

[byjove]

Yeah, even though I'm past my college years, I still can't say I've done many of those things. If I were given that list to fill to aid rectification, I wouldn't be helpful.

The most sailient features of my life so far are likely success in personal goals. For now, they don't generally include much on that list.

I just thought I'd add that I have a genuine interest in these tips, both for myself and for future practice of astrology - I'm not trying to be difficult! So I'm all eyes and ears here.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I just thought I'd add that I have a genuine interest in these tips, both for myself and for future practice of astrology - I'm not trying to be difficult! So I'm all eyes and ears here.

Thanks byjove, the ascendant is a perennially intriguing subject! Worth also mentioning that even within the same race there are differences of skin tone and eye colour

It's not unusual for children of the same race to be fairer or darker complexioned than their siblings.

So within the race of white/whitish people some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others and likewise within the race of black/blackish people some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others

Physical appearance indications are worth checking out as well http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html

Focusing on height, weight, bone structure, eye colour gives overall good results

Black people with Blue eyes and other ethnicities Parts 1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhW7rR6VDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCPBpCWm89Y

 

[byjove]

News!

A few months ago, before I even considered rectification, I contacted my hospital for a long version of a birth report of my birth day. After indicating that they were so busy and underfunded that I may not received news at all, today I received it.

On a copy of the original report, it clearly says 12.04. So, after investigating further, the hospital held the same time and it's quite specific.

I'm going to disregard human memory in this case, a hospital record is far more reliable than family members' memories. (They all have a different time anyway) I opened the case originally to see if there was an inaccuracy of 5/10 minutes or so, not expecting more.

Case closed, wuhoo!

 

[JUPITERASC]

News!
A few months ago, before I even considered rectification, I contacted my hospital for a long version of a birth report of my birth day. After indicating that they were so busy and underfunded that I may not received news at all, today I received it.

On a copy of the original report, it clearly says 12.04. So, after investigating further, the hospital held the same time and it's quite specific.

I'm going to disregard human memory in this case, a hospital record is far more reliable than family members' memories. (They all have a different time anyway) I opened the case originally to see if there was an inaccuracy of 5/10 minutes or so, not expecting more.

Case closed, wuhoo!

Good news indeed byjove... or 'Hercule Poirot' perhaps!

Wonderful to have an official record and as you say one expects to allow 5/10 minutes or so in any event.

12:04 is rather happily specific.

Your story is an excellent 'cautionary tale' regarding memory... although having said that, 'tis worth also noting that occasionally, memories are amazingly accurate

 

[byjove]

Indeed! For any of us on a research hunt on an issue here knows the value of stories laid out in a thread like this, I hope the breadth of experiences here comes in use to others!

 

[Knight]

ok, i see a lot of discussions and a lot of theory that "we need to see IC/MC aspects and their lords aspects,etc..." but what is a concrete set of aspects that would suggest important events in the life ?

Example:
birth of a child = say... 5th house cusp to be exactly conjunct with transiting moon or sun...
marriage (in the curch) = say... DC lord conjunct sun...
divorce = say...DC lord square venus or mars depending...

From your experience what are the obvious examples for such events ?
I know for me:
exact date and time of first hiring
exact date and time of wedding to officer
exact date and time of wedding in church (different that the previous)
exact date and time of birth for my child
and when i put them on natal chart, there are no exact orbs to, no notable aspects to IC/DC or AC/DC lords...
My mother and father, they have a range of 5 mins for my birth time that I can live with

Still, for my own satisfaction I would like to check the correctness of the birth time...

 

[Alice McDermott]

ok, i see a lot of discussions and a lot of theory that "we need to see IC/MC aspects and their lords aspects,etc..." but what is a concrete set of aspects that would suggest important events in the life ?

Example:
birth of a child = say... 5th house cusp to be exactly conjunct with transiting moon or sun...
marriage (in the curch) = say... DC lord conjunct sun...
divorce = say...DC lord square venus or mars depending...

From your experience what are the obvious examples for such events ?
I know for me:
exact date and time of first hiring
exact date and time of wedding to officer
exact date and time of wedding in church (different that the previous)
exact date and time of birth for my child
and when i put them on natal chart, there are no exact orbs to, no notable aspects to IC/DC or AC/DC lords...
My mother and father, they have a range of 5 mins for my birth time that I can live with

Still, for my own satisfaction I would like to check the correctness of the birth time...

if you have the correct house system for you, house cusps are very responsive to relevant events. However, it is not always through transits.

Day Age Harmonics are the very best method I have found to date to get an exact time of birth as planets and/or angles in the harmonic chart will always trigger within a degree the relevant planet and/or house cusp. I have described what they are and how to use them here: http://aliceportman.com/daily-age-harmonics/

The relevant Primary and/or secondary and/or tertiary progressions and/or solar arc directions will be usually active and often triggered by a transit.

Oftent the date of marriage evolves from the date you first met or got together with your partner so don't overlook those charts.

And you are quite correct that the angles are not always triggered in important events; I have tested out this idea with the Jigsaw program, using event dates for recorded birth times and it has not often given the correct Ascendant and MC. The main triggers are the relevant planets and/or house cusps. For example, the main indications of a long journey would be the activation of the 9th house cusp and/or planets in the 9th and/or the ruler of the 9th; as the Ascendant is connected to the physical body and environment, there would also be a trigger to this point, but I would expect the 9th house to be the main describer of these kinds of events.

The Polaris rectification program created by Isaac Starkman allows for this in its assessments, though, from my point of view, it is handicaped by only using the Topocentric house system.

Alice

 

[JUPITERASC]

ok, i see a lot of discussions and a lot of theory that "we need to see IC/MC aspects and their lords aspects,etc..." but what is a concrete set of aspects that would suggest important events in the life ?

Example:
birth of a child = say... 5th house cusp to be exactly conjunct with transiting moon or sun...
marriage (in the curch) = say... DC lord conjunct sun...
divorce = say...DC lord square venus or mars depending...

From your experience what are the obvious examples for such events ?
I know for me:
exact date and time of first hiring
exact date and time of wedding to officer
exact date and time of wedding in church (different that the previous)
exact date and time of birth for my child
and when i put them on natal chart, there are no exact orbs to, no notable aspects to IC/DC or AC/DC lords...
My mother and father, they have a range of 5 mins for my birth time that I can live with

Still, for my own satisfaction I would like to check the correctness of the birth time...

Hi Knight

During a wedding, particularly at the time the vows are spoken,


(a) the Ascendant Ruler and the Ruler of Cusp Seven must connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis because that is what a wedding is, astrologically!

(b) On the wedding day - Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars must also connect to the Natal Horizon DESC/ASC axis

Why?

Venus and Mars must connect in order to symbolise the 'Archetypal Lovers'

Sun and Moon must connect in order to symbolise the 'Domestic Couple' – now united and involved in 'house-keeping', child-bearing, child rearing


Some of the ways the ASC/DESC rulers may connect to the Natal Horizon:


(1) Trine, sextile, square, opposition, conjunction

(2) Any ASC/DESC ruler conjunct the MC is considered to connect to the local horizon via the MC/IC AXIS

(3) I have noticed from my own personal observation, that the Midpoints of the transiting ASC/DESC rulers of the wedding date, frequently connect to the Natal Horizon.


A much older astrological friend (who has since died) told me they learned the technique to verify an ascendant while a student decades ago - they never asked for payment for the information: I continue to pass the method on freely to others so that anyone may test it for themselves.

If it does not work for you then check out another method – there are plenty!

 

[JUPITERASC]

Trutine of Hermes is another useful rectification technique - here's a brief description of the concept, and then a link to a pdf with a worked example

There's more info online and a book was published many years ago on the subject

An astrological technique from antiquity generally known as the Prenatal Epoch

'....Ascendant, or its opposite, at birth, is Moon's position at conception.


....Known as "Trutine of Hermes," from Hermes Trismegistus who stated the law as follows:

"The place of the Moon at conception becomes the birth ascendant or its opposite point."


"But this proved to be but one-half of a very important law, for while the...

Ascendant at birth was the place of the Moon at a certain Epoch, the Ascendant or its opposite point at this Epoch was the place of the Moon at birth

....a very remarkable interchange of factors." E.H. Bailey.


This idea is so well known that astrology software such as Solar Fire allows the user to calculate their prenatal Epoch. The idea of the prenatal Epoch is also useful in chart rectification

– details viewable at http://www.darrelyngunzburg.com/PDFs/PreNatalEpoch.pdf

 

[Alice McDermott]

Trutine of Hermes is another useful rectification technique - here's a brief description of the concept, and then a link to a pdf with a worked example

There's more info online and a book was published many years ago on the subject http://www.amazon.com/The-Prenatal-Epoch-E-H-Bailey/dp/1933303247

This is a wonderful system with which I have extensively worked for many years. However, it will only work if the birth is natural. Any medical assistance that interferes with the natural flow of conception to birth disrupts this system, so things like induction and C-section will not produce accurate results and forceps delivery will often bring the first breath some minutes earlier than nature intended. Pain killers will sometimes speed up or slow down the birth to some degree, but the pre-natal epoch can still be a fairly accurate tool in these cases.

Alice

 

[sonia1983]

Hye ,Is there anyone who can help me in birth time rectification?
I have two time of births and I am really confused which one is mine?
this chart is with 12:45 pm birth time and the other one is 1.30 pm.

some events of my life.


2008 april break up.my b.f left me
28th dec 2008 had minor surgery of right breast .
31st dec 2011 exchange of first mail to my ex b.f .we became g.f/b.f later on.
11 oct 2012 ,got a shock.my b.f ditched me.and saw his marriage /engagement pictures on 11th oct 2012.
2011 august got thyroid issue.
latest hiring on 19th oct 2011 till present.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Hye ,Is there anyone who can help me in birth time rectification?
I have two time of births and I am really confused which one is mine?
this chart is with 12:45 pm birth time and the other one is 1.30 pm

Could you provide the reason why at this stage you have two birth times with a three quarter of an hour time difference between the two charts i.e. confirmation required as to whether these are medical records OR memories of the event from family members OR possibly a combination of both

ALSO you have not attached your natal chart - if you would like to, it would be helpful if you attach two natal chart, one for each of the times you have given

some events of my life.
2008 april break up.my b.f left me
28th dec 2008 had minor surgery of right breast .
31st dec 2011 exchange of first mail to my ex b.f .we became g.f/b.f later on.
11 oct 2012 ,got a shock.my b.f ditched me.and saw his marriage /engagement pictures on 11th oct 2012.
2011 august got thyroid issue.
latest hiring on 19th oct 2011 till present.

Time is important sonia 1983

(1)so in 2008 you need to have the DAY as well as the TIME ON THAT DAY that you realised your bf left
(2) 28 December 2011 TIME that minor surgery commenced is important
(3) time of the email of 31 Dec 2011
(4) TIME on 11 Oct 2012 that you saw marriage/engagement pictures and/or TIME bf ditched
(5) DAY as well as TIME medics told you of thyroid issue. If it was a letter what day/time was it written/received


Rectification is a complex process so the hour as well as the day, month and year simplifies - even then its not easy - there are reliable experts who can do it such as http://www.martingansten.com/btr.php Notice that Martin Gansten, a well known professional expert on rectification requests at least 10 major events. So if you have any dates of for example events such as Graduation, Day you began first employment that would be useful.

In the meantime, as someone who does NOT claim to be an expert, I shall do my best to be of use

 

[sonia1983]

Thank you for replying back.one of my friend who is learning astrology told me that my 2 t.o.b's show difference in marital matters.if my t.o.b is 12.45pm then,it shows a divorce aspect after marriage and according to 1.30 pm ,I have smooth married life.I am anxious to know about correct t.o.b.my mother told me 1.30 pm as exact where as my grand mother told me 12.45 p.m

kindly,help me birth time rectification.

my past events.

recent employment:19 oct 2011 was the joining date at 7.40 A.m.

I got thyroid report on 5 aug 2011 at 8.20 p.m

I saw my ex b.f engagement/marriage pictures on 11 oct 2012 at 9.45 P.m


minor surgery of right breast :I was called in the operation theater at 10 A.m where I also waited for a little time and finally I was out of operation theater at 1.00 p.m.and date was 28 dec 2008.




I

 

[sonia1983]

and other chart with other timings.