The Twelfth House

[Carris]

Carris,

I very much appreciate your themes and sources in this ongoing conversation. With Moon-Mars-Saturn-Pluto in Leo in the 12th squared by Sun in the 9th, one of the most important life matters I had resolve was proper use of power. And as you note, selflessness and service is certainly the 12th house requirement and also joy.

Thanks Ilene

Yes the author describes saturn-pluto hard aspects as "unwillingness or fear of showing power....a basic abhorence of the politics of politics of life - whether governmental or personal level."

She also says that sun-saturn hard aspects describe an individual who feels unacknowledged, unrecognized for who he is, he feels its better to remain in the background . Past life karma of this aspect shows connection with rulership, royalty, dominance or leadership - for example if a person was killed or punished because of his strength or leadership. One man saw himself as ruler who was killed in a battle (that he refused to withdraw from even though he knew they would lose) by a greek soldier - he felt great sadness because he had ruled well and saw all his generals and men die.

So maybe saturn in 12th house is connected with spiritual growth perhaps through repeating lessons till we finally let go of our fears and guilt.

 

[IleneK]

Thanks Ilene

Yes the author describes saturn-pluto hard aspects as "unwillingness or fear of showing power....a basic abhorence of the politics of politics of life - whether governmental or personal level."

She also says that sun-saturn hard aspects describe an individual who feels unacknowledged, unrecognized for who he is, he feels its better to remain in the background . Past life karma of this aspect shows connection with rulership, royalty, dominance or leadership - <...>

So maybe saturn in 12th house is connected with spiritual growth perhaps through repeating lessons till we finally let go of our fears and guilt.

Carris,

All apt descriptions of my life's process, although it is interesting that the polarities have also mingled strongly.

While I have had fear of showing power, I actually showed it all the time unconsciously, and life's lesson was first to recognize it and then learn to wield it with restraint, integrity and humanity. While I felt unacknowledged, I received continued recognition in my years, albeit always understated.

I must admit I do and I always have been most comfortable in the background. I was always vice president rather than president..I am an able assistant!

And letting go of the fears and guilt, again, all so deeply unconscious, has been the most liberating and spiritually fulfilling of all, perhaps because it has come last. It is my life's work, and in many ways the best.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts here with me.

 

[RaptInReverie]

Waybread,

I keep reiterating the twilight issue to dispel the notion that the early morning phase is particularly misty, shadowy, and obscure--this being a common symbolic justification for viewing the twelfth house in a similar manner. Such conditions are atmospheric and can apply to any period of the day. On a clear morning, the sky is illuminated enough to conduct outdoor activities before the Sun even touches the horizon, let alone before it enters the twelfth house. Again, I’m not specifically directing this at you. I know that this isn’t your personal view per se.

I don’t wish to debate ancient astrology any more than I wish to debate Geocentrism or the Flat Earth model. It is the personal views of astrologers today that I’m primarily interested in hearing. If that includes a few aspects that a person has adopted from ancient astrology, that’s cool. But I don’t think that the majority of us here are practicing an ancient system to the T. We all pick and choose to some extent.

What you’ve pointed out about the house cusps and their aspects to the ascendant is actually a good explanation for viewing the twelfth, eighth, and sixth houses as weak (I began researching this a few days ago too), although, as you’ve already mentioned, the second house somehow became an exception. Another interesting thing to note is this: all of the opposing houses maintain their diametric relationships when intrinsically defined except for the sixth and the twelfth, e.g. first house/self, seventh house/others; second house/personal resources, eighth house/other’s resources; third house/localities, ninth house/foreign affairs, etc.

There is also a social/personal dichotomy between the houses in the diurnal and nocturnal hemispheres respectively; however, once again, the twelfth house is an exception, maybe along with the third as well.

 

[Carris]

What you’ve pointed out about the house cusps and their aspects to the ascendant is actually a good explanation for viewing the twelfth, eighth, and sixth houses as weak, although the second house somehow became an exception. Another interesting thing to note is this: all of the opposing houses maintain their diametric relationships when intrinsically defined except for the sixth and the twelfth.

There is also a social/personal dichotomy between the houses in the diurnal and nocturnal hemispheres respectively; however, once again, the twelfth house is an exception, maybe along with the third as well.

Et tu Brute? Then fall Caesar! *falls lifeless*

 

[RaptInReverie]

Carris,

Lol! I'd never lie down my sword and flee the battle field. I just gave Waybread a little credit for making a good point, but I am far from siding with her. I'm still your Sir Lancelot, darlin'.

 

[waybread]

Waybread,

I keep reiterating the twilight issue to dispel the notion that the early morning phase is particularly misty, shadowy, and obscure--this being a common symbolic justification for viewing the twelfth house in a similar manner. Such conditions are atmospheric and can apply to any period of the day. On a clear morning, the sky is illuminated enough to conduct outdoor activities before the Sun even touches the horizon, let alone before it enters the twelfth house. Again, I’m not specifically directing this at you. I know that this isn’t your personal view per se.

I don’t wish to debate ancient astrology any more than I wish to debate Geocentrism or the Flat Earth model. It is the personal views of astrologers today that I’m primarily interested in hearing. If that includes a few aspects that a person has adopted from ancient astrology, that’s cool. But I don’t think that the majority of us here are practicing an ancient system to the T. We all pick and choose to some extent.

What you’ve pointed out about the house cusps and their aspects to the ascendant is actually a good explanation for viewing the twelfth, eighth, and sixth houses as weak (I began researching this a few days ago too), although, as you’ve already mentioned, the second house somehow became an exception. Another interesting thing to note is this: all of the opposing houses maintain their diametric relationships when intrinsically defined except for the sixth and the twelfth, e.g. first house/self, seventh house/others; second house/personal resources, eighth house/other’s resources; third house/localities, ninth house/foreign affairs, etc.

There is also a social/personal dichotomy between the houses in the diurnal and nocturnal hemispheres respectively; however, once again, the twelfth house is an exception, maybe along with the third as well.

The point I am making is not about how you or I see the period just after sunrise. Rather, I am trying to explain what the ancients said about it; how they interpreted the 12th. Since I am not a traditional astrologer, I am not going to the mat for their accuracy in modern terms. I might go to the mat for trying to convey their explanations accurately.

Again, Ptolemy and Vettius Valens were part of the scene in Hellenized Egypt, which is not in a temperate climate belt. Alexandria where they lived, in particular, so close to the sea, can be very humid at times. The "hamsin" winds of Egypt, at certain times of year, can notably obscure the sky through sandstorms. I don't know if you've ever been in a sand- or duststorm, but I have. The air looks very opaque close to the horizon, yet clearer overhead.

We also have to think about a kind of metaphysical obscurity, as well as a meteorological or geocentric astronomical obscurity-- which seems to be your major point. The 12th was obscure to them; for reasons that I think have to do with Egyptian beliefs about the god Set (Seth.)

Do you see the difference?

The reason I am going to so much trouble, repeatedly, is that like it or not, many astrology students have read or heard that the 12th house has a troubled reputation. Carris alluded to it in her OP. I have merely explained where that reputation came from. The history of astrology is what it is. This doesn't mean we have to repeat this history if we choose modern astrology over traditional astrology.

In other posts, I have described multiple contemporary meanings of the 12th house. Like the other 11 houses, the 12th has some positive and some negative navigations.

BTW, perhaps everyone here knows that there has been a revival of interest in traditional western astrology, starting ca. 1990. Deborah Houlding, author of Houses: Temples of the Sky, maintains a traditional astrology website called Skyscript at www.skyscript.co.uk , which also has a forum plus many articles for anyone interested in probing deeper.

 

[RaptInReverie]

Waybread,

There’s no point in you relaying the views of Ptolemy and Valens to me unless you accept and believe them too. It will only result in you feeling attacked in the end. When I say that I don’t understand why people today view the twelfth house in such a profoundly deleterious light, it means not that I am confused about or ignorant of the way some astrologers in past times viewed things. It means that I am curious to know why modern astrologers currently accept and perpetuate certain views about the twelfth house. This is not a mere matter of adhering to the fundamentals either, for most modern astrologers do not strictly adhere to ancient astrological principles. To varying extents, we’ve all made modifications to suite our personal preferences.

The Khasmin winds are only seasonal and are not confined to one particular period of the day. They obscure the Sun in mid day as well. Likewise humidity, precipitation, and cloud cover are not consistent from day to day. This is why we have meteorology and weather forecasting. Surely Ptolemy and Valens observed clear and distinct sunrises as well. The twelfth house connection remains weak.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by metaphysical obscurity; woe if it is in any way related to mythology, for if you really want to see obscurity, throw mythology into this discussion, lol. No, honestly, feel free to present your ideas on Egyptology and its influence on astrology. I'm sure many of us would enjoy hearing them. I must forewarn you, however, that I may only reply with a polite head nod. I have personal beliefs in this area that I wish not to divulge on this site, although I 100% respect your wish to do so.

By the way, you've been pushing Deborah Houlding's material a lot, and I guess I should have mentioned that many of us are already familiar with her work. Her site is linked and or paraphrased on virtually every discussion board here.

 

[Carris]

Carris,

I received continued recognition in my years, albeit always understated.

I was always vice president rather than president..I am an able assistant!

Ilene, I just thought of something: You were vice president and yet you view the 12th as restricting you somehow. How many people get to vice president level in their lives? No matter how many "beneficial" houses are prominent in their charts? This shows that the 12th is not materially harmful at all - it just wants you to know that the spiritual "high" you get from service you cannot get from anything else.

People who actually do the work to provide service have much more influence on the world than the ones who lead in a more remote way. For example, I don't think president obama has more influence on people's lives and thoughts than the doctors/teachers/others who actually do the work to provide service - in fact, much less influence. Maybe you psychologically felt this restriction only because you had read these (false) negative views about the 12th - we have no idea how much damage these "asstrologers" have done throughout time.

I also am the same way - I prefer being the "worker bee" rather than leader. There is much more satisfaction in actually doing and understanding the work yourself rather than just directing others to do it. Although where my work is concerned I need to be fully in charge of it so that I can ensure its quality.

 

[Carris]

Waybread, RaptInReverie

I think I may know why traditional astrologers viewed 12th as negative.

Its about the 6th-12th axis - "In the 6th house there is a strong desire to develop practical skills and areas of personal expertise that can be put to use. In the 12th is the desire to dedicate our practical skills and talents in the service of something greater than ourselves."

So imagine a materialistic person's thinking: "What?! After I spent all this time, money and effort to acquire my practical skills, now you want me to just selflessly give it away in service to others? Heavens protect me from such evil!"

They would be shocked beyond belief that anyone could suggest such a thing. They would not be able to understand that selfless service does not mean starving yourself - but rather love, compassion, kindness.

Not just in ancient times, when there was a desperate struggle for survival, but even in the times of oliver twist, when there was such poverty, hunger and desperation - everyone must have been fully occupied in just getting a square meal a day. No one must have had the time, energy or resources to provide any kind of "selfless service" to others. And yet, people with 12th placements must have had had the strong overwhelming desire to do so - and thus went "crazy" ending up in an institution or worse. The illiteracy and lack of information, communication and knowledge would have made things worse - I know because knowledge is what saved me.

So those ancient astrologers were just very materialistic people with an elitist frame of mind - "selflessness" was what they found "obscure and mysterious" - nothing else.

Any idea what kind of connection great philanthropists would have with the 12th house in their chart? Is it a factor in their philanthropy?

 

[JerryRR]

Sidereal Astrologer Jacques Dorsan employs the clockwise house system,12th House = 1st.
Thatcher,Blair and Bush Jr have Sun in the 1st House.

I recommend "The Clockwise House System.",A True Foundation for Sidereal and Tropical Astrology,by Jacques Dorsan.

J.R.

 

[RaptInReverie]

Thanks Jerry. I hadn’t thought of a clockwise house system. This will surely be a rewarding study. By the way, my Sun is also in the 12th house.

 

[waybread]

"OP" means opening post, or opening poster.

Waybread,

There’s no point in you relaying the views of Ptolemy and Valens to me unless you accept and believe them too. It will only result in you feeling attacked in the end. When I say that I don’t understand why people today view the twelfth house in such a profoundly deleterious light, it means not that I am confused about or ignorant of the way some astrologers in past times viewed things. It means that I am curious to know why modern astrologers currently accept and perpetuate certain views about the twelfth house. This is not a mere matter of adhering to the fundamentals either, for most modern astrologers do not strictly adhere to ancient astrological principles. To varying extents, we’ve all made modifications to suite our personal preferences.

The Khasmin winds are only seasonal and are not confined to one particular period of the day. They obscure the Sun in mid day as well. Likewise humidity, precipitation, and cloud cover are not consistent from day to day. This is why we have meteorology and weather forecasting. Surely Ptolemy and Valens observed clear and distinct sunrises as well. The twelfth house connection remains weak.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by metaphysical obscurity; woe if it is in any way related to mythology, for if you really want to see obscurity, throw mythology into this discussion, lol. No, honestly, feel free to present your ideas on Egyptology and its influence on astrology. I'm sure many of us would enjoy hearing them. I must forewarn you, however, that I may only reply with a polite head nod. I have personal beliefs in this area that I wish not to divulge on this site, although I 100% respect your wish to do so.

By the way, you've been pushing Deborah Houlding's material a lot, and I guess I should have mentioned that many of us are already familiar with her work. Her site is linked and or paraphrased on virtually every discussion board here.

This is astonishing. What is the problem with my relaying some ancient astrologers' ideas-- and not believing in them? People relay other people's ideas all the time. I am not some tender hothouse flower incapable of standing up to a debate. I can't take any of this stuff personally. We are just a bunch of strangers on an Internet forum.

RaptInReverie, I will say that, judging from your photograph, I am probably old enough to be your grandmother, and have been studying astrology at least since you were a little guy. So no need to patronize me.

I will have to let other modern astrologers speak for themselves if they take a dim view of the 12th house. I've explained my personal views in previous posts. And criticize Ptolemy and Valens all you want. {attacking comment - deleted by moderator}
Again, my point isn't meteorology the way you, I, or the National Weather Service sees it. The point, rather, is how people in ancient times said they saw it. Of course, if you've taken Earth Science 101 or somesuch, you will probably have a different personal view than the ancients.

Metaphysics: a branch of philosophy concerned with ultimate reality, that transcends science.

Obscure: not clear or readily discovered.

I think mythology is great. I've studied a reasonable amount of it. I am happy to discuss it any ol' time.

I'm glad you've found the Skyscript site.

Also, keep in mind that our messages are posted on an open thread. If I direct my comments to you, this doesn't mean that I don't think anybody else will read them or respond to them.

 

[Carris]

Sidereal Astrologer Jacques Dorsan employs the clockwise house system,12th House = 1st.
Thatcher,Blair and Bush Jr have Sun in the 1st House.

I recommend "The Clockwise House System.",A True Foundation for Sidereal and Tropical Astrology,by Jacques Dorsan.

J.R.

Thanks JR

It might be just as true. If the birth chart shows our characteristics and destiny - that means the planets "imprinted" us the moment we were born or took our first breath. So counting houses should not really matter - clockwise or anticlockwise. The planets will remain frozen in their positions as far as the native is concerned.

The east west axis could mean one thing - and the midheaven-nadir axis could mean another thing. We don't really have to assign numbers to them.

For example - the sun was 3* above the horizon when I was born. Why should it matter whether it was in the western or in the eastern horizon? Unless we take into account that the newborn will continue to be "imprinted" by the planets for 24 hours after his birth. Upon his birth the infant "sees" houses 7-12 up above - and only AFTER his birth, as the earth rotates, he sees houses 1-6.

 

[sandstone]

hi carris,

interesting comments.. i think the more one understands the mechanics - astronomy and how it works, the better one can understand the astrology. astrology is a symbolic language.. the symbolism often will have a direct connection to nature of the movements.. for example, a popular house system - placidus - is based on the time it takes for the rising degree to reach the midheaven and is not purely a division of space like whole-sign houses for example.. understanding these differences helps to build a better understanding of many of the in's and out's on the reason you might want to use one particular system or approach over another.. interpreting a natal chart in a 'stand alone' manner, is not the same as projecting into time using predictive tools that professional astrologers regularly work with.. this is just one example of where a certain system might work better for one area and not as much for the other.. it is hard to articulate some of this over the net with a typewriter.. the more one reads, the more one is exposed to, and the more one can learn to think it all out for themselves..

regarding the link to book on re-ordering the houses to go in a clockwise manner - this is a good example of what i am trying to touch on in my first paragraph.. this book was actually written in the 70's or 80's.. if you go to google books, you can read some of the references for the book which will give more of an insight into the contents.. the idea of running the houses in the opposite direction is an old one, but as i recall it got some more modern traction with cyril fagan - a siderealist from the early part of the 20th century, along with siderealism too for that matter.. every system in use in astrology usuallly has some basis in astronomy as both these ideas do... the fact is the planetary motions can be described a few different ways and it is arbitrary in that someone wanted to emphasize one approach over another and it was handed down as 'traditional'.. the more obscure ideas withered away or were forgotten, but can never be lost completely for the simple reason - people like to think out of the box and challenge the old ways.. what looks old at one point, looks new at another... and on and on the cycle goes in whatever direction you want to think it is going in..

whether you call the area above the horizon 12th or 1st doesn't really matter.. whether you want to base it on the difference between the rising sign and the sign that precedes the rising sign does have a basis in the history of how astrologers from the past approached this.. so does incorporating the sidereal system verses the tropical system.. all of it becomes relative and up to the person where they want to go with the ideas..

if you think of the angles and planets moving towards these angles as gaining more relevance, then it means you think the angles have greater relevance for the moment when the chart is set for.. i think the idea of the 12th really hinges on the fact planets in the 12th have passed this moment of relevance.. they will continue to move on towards the midheaven and gain relevance again from the point of view of the movement of time bringing these 12th house planets to the midheaven, but from the point of view of there relevance for the moment - it is like there moment is past.. they have already risen and are made more obscure based on this astronomical fact.. how one wants to interpret this in an astrological sense will hinge on many considerations or not, dependent on ones imagination and the exposure they have to working with charts and seeing this phenomenon in action in a real sense.. sorry for the wordy post..

 

[Carris]

hi carris,

interesting comments.. i think the more one understands the mechanics - astronomy and how it works, the better one can understand the astrology. astrology is a symbolic language.. the symbolism often will have a direct connection to nature of the movements.. for example, a popular house system - placidus - is based on the time it takes for the rising degree to reach the midheaven and is not purely a division of space like whole-sign houses for example.. understanding these differences helps to build a better understanding of many of the in's and out's on the reason you might want to use one particular system or approach over another.. interpreting a natal chart in a 'stand alone' manner, is not the same as projecting into time using predictive tools that professional astrologers regularly work with.. this is just one example of where a certain system might work better for one area and not as much for the other.. it is hard to articulate some of this over the net with a typewriter.. the more one reads, the more one is exposed to, and the more one can learn to think it all out for themselves..

regarding the link to book on re-ordering the houses to go in a clockwise manner - this is a good example of what i am trying to touch on in my first paragraph.. this book was actually written in the 70's or 80's.. if you go to google books, you can read some of the references for the book which will give more of an insight into the contents.. the idea of running the houses in the opposite direction is an old one, but as i recall it got some more modern traction with cyril fagan - a siderealist from the early part of the 20th century, along with siderealism too for that matter.. every system in use in astrology usuallly has some basis in astronomy as both these ideas do... the fact is the planetary motions can be described a few different ways and it is arbitrary in that someone wanted to emphasize one approach over another and it was handed down as 'traditional'.. the more obscure ideas withered away or were forgotten, but can never be lost completely for the simple reason - people like to think out of the box and challenge the old ways.. what looks old at one point, looks new at another... and on and on the cycle goes in whatever direction you want to think it is going in..

whether you call the area above the horizon 12th or 1st doesn't really matter.. whether you want to base it on the difference between the rising sign and the sign that precedes the rising sign does have a basis in the history of how astrologers from the past approached this.. so does incorporating the sidereal system verses the tropical system.. all of it becomes relative and up to the person where they want to go with the ideas..

if you think of the angles and planets moving towards these angles as gaining more relevance, then it means you think the angles have greater relevance for the moment when the chart is set for.. i think the idea of the 12th really hinges on the fact planets in the 12th have passed this moment of relevance.. they will continue to move on towards the midheaven and gain relevance again from the point of view of the movement of time bringing these 12th house planets to the midheaven, but from the point of view of there relevance for the moment - it is like there moment is past.. they have already risen and are made more obscure based on this astronomical fact.. how one wants to interpret this in an astrological sense will hinge on many considerations or not, dependent on ones imagination and the exposure they have to working with charts and seeing this phenomenon in action in a real sense.. sorry for the wordy post..

Sandstone

Yes I guess interpretations of astrology depend on whether we view planets moving towards angles as gaining more relevance rather than already passed them. This is in terms of signs - that is planets move forward from aries to taurus to gemini.

But - Planets conjunct the MC but in the 9th are considered less effective than those in the 10th (even though they should be gaining in relevance as they approach the MC). So planets conjunct the Ascendent but in the 12th would be less effective than those in the 1st. However, the Gaquelin research found planets in 12th to be more relevant than the first.

I was thinking in terms of planets "frozen" in their position at the time of birth - not considering how the planets moved after the birth. For eample: The sun directly overhead at the time of birth would naturally have more influence on the newborn (because we are closest to the sun at that time) than the sun near the horizon - but why should east or west horizon matter?

Why is the sun 3* above the eastern horizon (i.e the 12th house) considered evil whereas the sun 3* above the western horizon (i.e. the 7th house) is considered okay? Or any planet rising or setting. I guess I feel very protective about my poor harassed 12th house.

But I guess you're right " astrology is a symbolic language.. the symbolism often will have a direct connection to nature of the movement"

 

[sandstone]

hi carris,

there are at least 2 motions that one needs to understand, maybe 3.. one is the earth turning on its axis which gives us the impression planets rise in the east and set in the west... this is what i and others called 'diurnal' or daily motion of the planets.. the movement is counterclockwise in appearance - planets going thru the houses in a backwards numbered way from 1 to 12, to 11, - 10 - 9 all the way to 7.. think of this like sunrise - sun on the ascendant house 1 - to sunset cusp of house 7..

the 2nd motion is based on a yearly movement with the signs being the basis for watching this motion.. sun on the first day of spring - 0 aries, moves to first day of summer - 0 cancer and around and back to the first day of spring, the arbitrary starting point for the 12 signs..

in your example on a planet moving from the 9th to the 10th house - this is the yearly cycle that you are highlighting, not the daily cycle.. this might be part of the basis for some of the confusion.. daily cycle - sun moves from 1 to 12, 10 to 9 and on and on backwards thru the house numbers.. yearly cycle - sun moves from the 9th sign/house to the 10th, or 12th to the 1st.. without understanding these 2 cycles clearly, there is room for confusion.

the reason east and west matter : planets rise in the east and set in the west. there is an association with strength given to planets that are rising, and weakness to planets that are setting.. this is especially true if one breaks down planets into male/female type stereotypes - mars is better rising, and venus is better setting as it is more in keeping with their inherent nature.. not sure if you are following me here.. generally planets that rise ahead of the sun are oriental to the sun and considered in a more dominant position then planets that set after the sun or are occidental to the sun. i would give you examples off your chart for you to understand it better, but perhaps i can do this with with madoffs chart
since it is publicly available on the link above.. the planets oriental to his sun are moon, mercury, saturn and jupiter.. the planets occidental are uranus, venus, mars, pluto, and neptune.. on the other hand just considering east and west - these same planets occidental to his sun - excluding uranus) are all rising in the east and gaining strength based on the daily motion.. i am comparing daily motion to motion in relation to the sun here..

understanding the basis for the many things that astrologers talk about and the way they try to figure out planetary strength are some of the many considerations that can be made.. the planets have to be understood celestially - sign position and terrestrially - house position.. a planet that is strong celestially - in a sign that it is at home in, while in a house that doesn't help it is a mixed bag.. a planet weak celestially, but in a house where it is strong is also a mixed bag.. these are more of the many considerations astrologers regularly try to sort out.

about your question 3 degree above the ascendant is in the 12th house - this is a byproduct of newer house systems which don't connect with the original ideas associated with the 12th which would have been based on whole-sign houses.. if a planet is 3 degrees above the eastern horizon line( ascendant) but in the same sign as the ascendant degree( what the word horoscope originally meant) it would still be in the 1st house according to the older astrological system.. in other words the house system was based on the signs, not on other considerations introduced later in astrology.. the sign on the ascendant is the sign for the 1st house.. the sign preceding the sign on the ascendant is the 12th sign to the ascendant sign and the 12th house... capeesh? it isn't about the degree but about the sign and whether the planet is in the same sign as the ascendant sign or not..

anyway, that is it for today.. cheers
http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?...Jlt2m236QbTzRhndIzF3qpQhT9ssqMinmR9PP4A_q4NeM

 

[Carris]

hi carris,

there are at least 2 motions that one needs to understand, maybe 3.. one is the earth turning on its axis which gives us the impression planets rise in the east and set in the west... this is what i and others called 'diurnal' or daily motion of the planets.. the movement is counterclockwise in appearance - planets going thru the houses in a backwards numbered way from 1 to 12, to 11, - 10 - 9 all the way to 7.. think of this like sunrise - sun on the ascendant house 1 - to sunset cusp of house 7..

the 2nd motion is based on a yearly movement with the signs being the basis for watching this motion.. sun on the first day of spring - 0 aries, moves to first day of summer - 0 cancer and around and back to the first day of spring, the arbitrary starting point for the 12 signs..

in your example on a planet moving from the 9th to the 10th house - this is the yearly cycle that you are highlighting, not the daily cycle.. this might be part of the basis for some of the confusion.. daily cycle - sun moves from 1 to 12, 10 to 9 and on and on backwards thru the house numbers.. yearly cycle - sun moves from the 9th sign/house to the 10th, or 12th to the 1st.. without understanding these 2 cycles clearly, there is room for confusion.

the reason east and west matter : planets rise in the east and set in the west. there is an association with strength given to planets that are rising, and weakness to planets that are setting.. this is especially true if one breaks down planets into male/female type stereotypes - mars is better rising, and venus is better setting as it is more in keeping with their inherent nature.. not sure if you are following me here.. generally planets that rise ahead of the sun are oriental to the sun and considered in a more dominant position then planets that set after the sun or are occidental to the sun. i would give you examples off your chart for you to understand it better, but perhaps i can do this with with madoffs chart
since it is publicly available on the link above.. the planets oriental to his sun are moon, mercury, saturn and jupiter.. the planets occidental are uranus, venus, mars, pluto, and neptune.. on the other hand just considering east and west - these same planets occidental to his sun - excluding uranus) are all rising in the east and gaining strength based on the daily motion.. i am comparing daily motion to motion in relation to the sun here..

understanding the basis for the many things that astrologers talk about and the way they try to figure out planetary strength are some of the many considerations that can be made.. the planets have to be understood celestially - sign position and terrestrially - house position.. a planet that is strong celestially - in a sign that it is at home in, while in a house that doesn't help it is a mixed bag.. a planet weak celestially, but in a house where it is strong is also a mixed bag.. these are more of the many considerations astrologers regularly try to sort out.

about your question 3 degree above the ascendant is in the 12th house - this is a byproduct of newer house systems which don't connect with the original ideas associated with the 12th which would have been based on whole-sign houses.. if a planet is 3 degrees above the eastern horizon line( ascendant) but in the same sign as the ascendant degree( what the word horoscope originally meant) it would still be in the 1st house according to the older astrological system.. in other words the house system was based on the signs, not on other considerations introduced later in astrology.. the sign on the ascendant is the sign for the 1st house.. the sign preceding the sign on the ascendant is the 12th sign to the ascendant sign and the 12th house... capeesh? it isn't about the degree but about the sign and whether the planet is in the same sign as the ascendant sign or not..

anyway, that is it for today.. cheers

Sandstone - Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

I guess its difficult for me to get inside their heads - how and why did they decide these things? What was the logic they used? Was is just arbitrary or did they actually do rigorous research? Maybe it had to do with the authoritarian culture of that time. How often were their predictions correct - did they atleast have a 50% accuracy rate? Or did they just twist, manipulate and pull some new convoluted method out of the air when faced with inaccuracy of their predictions? I guess we'll never know.

Thanks anyway!

 

[sandstone]

thanks carris,

this is the most scientific i am going to get with this..

astrology based on observation, as opposed to theory is much more rewarding.. it's good to learn the theory, but i think it's wise to question the theory too.. hopefully your astrology will be based on observation mostly as opposed to theory.. that is what i aspire towards.

 

[greybeard]

Dirunal motion is clockwise. The Sun rises at 9 am on the clock dial, goes up to 12, down.....clockwise.

Zodiacal motion is counterclockwise.

 

[gaer]

Before I answer, I should mention that I am totally aware that my chart is read differently in whole sign. It is not a system I feel comfortable with, but this is personal and not based on "logic"...

...but a lot of what a person is about i don't think can be gotten from a chart.. this might sound blasphemous coming from someone who has a real love of astrology..i mix my love of astrology with some practicality..

I'm a week late because I can NOT get notifications working. <grrr>

Doesn't this sort of come down to free will vs. predetermination? If so, how much of our lives is predetermined? How much is up to us?

I think this is the essential question. It involves our worldview, and our worldview is going to very much affect our view of astrology.

i find your idea of the 12th being time to pay the piper interesting. i think of the planet saturn as having more to do with this then the 12th house.. 30 years is a saturn cycle as well, which happens to coincide with your break from family tradition described in your post.. and fwiw, i tend to see your saturn as first as opposed to 12th, but don't want to make this a conversation on house systems.

Of course there is a cycle that is a bit shorter than 30 years for Saturn, thus the "Saturn return". I tend to think that the way this cycle plays out is very much connected to many other factors. For instance, if at the time of the return Saturn conjuncts one planet that is part of a grand trine, isn't it obvious that this will play out very differently from Saturn conjuncting a planet in a difficult T-square?

The "pay the piper" idea has to do with the idea that for those who believe in reincarnation, there are things that are not addressed in previous lifetimes. If we look at life from this viewpoint, which is most definitely not going to work at all for people who don't think this way, we might feel in ourselves a habit or weakness that we have ignored, and in this lifetime it becomes crucial to finally face it.

When I was still fairly young, a much older man said to me: "You are not kind."

It was understated, and of course there are few who are totally UNkind - or totally kind, so it was also said a bit maliciously. But there was great truth in what he said. I was a young "idealist" who was honorable and who stood up for principles, but when it came to the pain in ordinary people's lives, I just didn't see it, or rather I did not have compassion about it.

Look at my chart, then consider someone with the 12th house placements I have who is not compassionate. I think we all have to learn compassion, but I had a mega-dose of experiences coming my way that would show me I had no choice but to change. I went through deep depression, but I coped. At about age 30, I was knocked on my butt, and in the years that followed, during the Saturn transits to my 2nd house, I felt as if everything had been taken away from me. It was a very "internal" experience.

I am repeating those same transits right now. But the second time I was prepared. That makes all the difference in the world.

At any rate, do you see where my "pay the piper" viewpoint comes from? The whole idea of "server or suffer" may sound like a cliche, and I won't apply this idea to the chart or life of anyone else, but for me it was true.

escapism comes in all sorts of shapes and forms. one could say it is lethal generally, to which i would agree, but often times it isn't too.

For me the key word here is "moderation".

this is partly why i was intrigued with raptinreverie's comment that self undoing can come out of any part of the chart which i find myself in agreement with.

My view: to link any kind of experience to one and only one "factor" in a chart is not going to work. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and ultimately not acknowledging our weaknesses and working to do something about them is "self-undoing", in my opinion. In the end it always comes down to the same idea: the chart must be considered AS A WHOLE. To me that is, in the end, always largely intuitive and beyond description.

for me we are all connected and spiritual by nature, with some more quick to recognize this then others, while some live out there life in a more materialistic manner completely caught up in the day to day activities that define how they see themselves.. we are all different.

That's not my view of astrology - it's my view of LIFE.

Having said that, I think we have to always remember that the way we view life is totally tied to the way we view everything in life - including astrology.