Venus and Chastity

[Mohammad690]

Peace upon all,

Traditional texts say that a «*good*» Venus (in dignity, free from infortunes, etc.) gives chastity and a «*bad*» Venus the opposite. (Specially once configured to Mars or a bad Mercury)

It is important to note that by Chastity, they mean no «*illegitimate*» sex i. e., out of wedlock. They decidedly do not mean a lack of sex. That’s the providence of Saturn.

But today’s widely-held belief is that Venus gives sex — Without regard to its «*legitimacy*»; whether it is in or out of wedlock.

What is your experience with Venus? Do you see people with a dignified and well-aspected Venus tend to marriage and fidelity or to being someone who has a lot of sex, in and out of wedlock?

 

[JUPITERASC]

Peace upon all,

Traditional texts say that a «*good*» Venus (in dignity, free from infortunes, etc.) gives chastity and a «*bad*» Venus the opposite. (Specially once configured to Mars or a bad Mercury)

It is important to note that by Chastity, they mean no «*illegitimate*» sex i. e., out of wedlock. They decidedly do not mean a lack of sex. That’s the providence of Saturn.

But today’s widely-held belief is that Venus gives sex — Without regard to its «*legitimacy*»; whether it is in or out of wedlock.

What is your experience with Venus? Do you see people with a dignified and well-aspected Venus tend to marriage and fidelity or to being someone who has a lot of sex, in and out of wedlock?

Thank you for the wish to disseminate peace to all
abd wishing you the same
Bunraku posted a thread at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132246
that is relevant to the discussion and I quote

I think having a thread is crucial in traditional astrology
that is often ignored today.
Thankfully, we have many surviving works

to help us discern this important and crucial topic.
Of course, this is just for educational purposes.
It's absolutely useful to know in vivid detail, especially their specific proclivities
that are dependent on the planetary configurations, such as
the type and nature of the evil actions, e.g. dominance (unnatural),
aggression (approaching a man), liberality (excess sex), nymphomania, lesbianism, exhibitionism, etc.
Knowing the specific acts, the characteristics, attributes, features, and
peculiarities, will give you the knowledge of conduct, of such women
...so you can stay away from them of course

I shall start.

In the Complatio de astorum scientia, written by Leopold of Austria says:
Et si nascitur mulier et martis est sic ut dicitur est in signo femino: quae nascitur meretrix erit."
Which basically means that if a woman is born under a feminine astrological sign, such as Taurus, and Mars is in that sign, then the woman will be a whore.

In the Wife of Bath's own damning testimony of her passionate and scandalous nature: Myn ascendent was Taur, and Mars therinne. / Allas, allas! That ever love was synne

Information above taken from Edgar S. Laird's Mars in Taurus at the Nativity of the Wife of Bath(English language Notes, 1990) where he talks about when the Wife of Bath in the Canterbury Tales talks about her Mars-Taurus causing her amorous nature. She was considered one of the first prototypes of feminist behavior in literature, which was deeply unnatural at the time.

Some more bold quotes from this shocking woman:
For certes, I am al Venerien
In feelynge, and myn herte is Marcien
Venus me yaf my list, my likerousnesse
And Mars yaf me my study hardynesse

Evers, Jim W, own analysis in "Some Implications of Caucer's Use of Astrology in the Canterbury Tales, Duke University (1971)" gives us insight on her nature.
"The Wife makes every effort to portray herself as a vital, aggressive woman; and her abundant and color autobiographical insertions illustrating the Mars-Venus influence upon her life forshadow her militantly feminist ideas on her announced subject--"Wo that is in marriage.""


The completed quote of the Wife of Bath:

I folwed ay myn inclinacioun
By vertu of my constellacioun
That made me I koude noght withdrawe
My chambre of Venus from a good felawe
Yet I have Martes mark upon my face,
And also in another privee place


The author them attempts to rectify her chart based on these lustful aspects. Though, according to them, it seemed more likely that Mars was not in the sign alone, but was in conjunction with Mars, 'as the Wife associates the influence of Venus with Mars.'

Unfortunately, my Mars in in a feminine sign.

Firmicus Maternus
Venus on the ascendant by day
makes the natives oversexed, unchaste, of ill repute.
In the 10th house... A woman with Venus in this house will be oversexed, addicted to all kinds of pleasurere
-a prostitute who sets herself up in business
or lets herself out to a pimp.

But all these things
are accomplished according to the nature
and quality of the signs.

Firmicus Maternus therefore cautions against generalisation
generalisation is a fun but unreliable modus operandi
and
adds as follows

In mutable, tropical, or scaly signs,
or in the house of Saturn,
the native will have a bad reputation forever
and will commit unnatural acts in a variety of ways.
But
if
Venus in this house is in a feminine sign
and the waxing Moon, also in a feminine sign, is in aspect to Mars,
this will make eunuchs, castrates, or hermaphrodites
who do what women are accustomed to do
when driven by extraordinary lust.

therefore one is advised to read Firmicus Maternus ENTIRETY
before leaping to conclusions on this matter

 

[Mohammad690]

Thank you Jupiter. I’ll surely look at the other thread, too.

By the way, which signs are scaly?

 

[sworm09]

Peace upon all,

Traditional texts say that a «*good*» Venus (in dignity, free from infortunes, etc.) gives chastity and a «*bad*» Venus the opposite. (Specially once configured to Mars or a bad Mercury)

It is important to note that by Chastity, they mean no «*illegitimate*» sex i. e., out of wedlock. They decidedly do not mean a lack of sex. That’s the providence of Saturn.

But today’s widely-held belief is that Venus gives sex — Without regard to its «*legitimacy*»; whether it is in or out of wedlock.

What is your experience with Venus? Do you see people with a dignified and well-aspected Venus tend to marriage and fidelity or to being someone who has a lot of sex, in and out of wedlock?

My suspicion is that these comments on Venus have more to do with stability than morality, but the authors were talking about said stability through the filter of their respective cultures.

What's a dignified Venus? A stable Venus, giving you stable relationships that are long lasting a personally fulfilling. In the past this translates directly marriage, but nowadays this could also translate into stable relationships in general.

Venus with Jupiter in aspect was seen to be a good thing. Why? Because Jupiter stabilizes things and also has a tendency to promote life. With Venus procreation is a bonus as well. So this is a happy marriage with 2.5 kids, the whole nine yards. But that doesn't necessarily HAVE to be how it is, it could just indicate that the native's relationships are stable and healthy.

The malefics with Venus were seen as a bad thing. Why? Because the malefics are both all about separation. Mars does it quickly, Saturn does it slowly. Venus being afflicted by Mars is too much for Venus and causes breakups. Saturn makes relationships frigid and unrewarding. Since Mars is excessive force, Mars afflicting Venus also makes people who are oversexed and don't have stable relationships because they can't keep their pants on. Saturn afflicting Venus makes relationships unrewarding and in worst cases, completely degraded. If Mars is also in aspect the person might be oversexed AND degraded.....leading to some kinky stuff.

Mercury is often left out of conversations about Venus. But Mercury and Venus together as long as Mars is in some way associated can indicate promiscuity. Depending on other factors and in extreme scenarios, these people will sleep with anything that breathes. Nowadays we're more accepting of sexual fluidity, so there's a space for this nowadays. In the days when the traditional texts were written, such fluidity was a huge no no.

How about lack of sex? Venus associated with Saturn with Mars nowhere in aspect. So if we had Venus in one of Saturn's signs or Venus afflicted by Saturn and Saturn is in bad shape AND Mars is nowhere near either of them. The traditional texts say in no uncertain terms that these people die with their virginity firmly intact. The fire just isn't there it seems, so Mars isn't all bad when it comes to sexual stuff.

So I wouldn't take any of the statements about Venus as moral, but more statements about relative stability. Stable relationships were (and in many ways still are) seen as positive while unstable or socially rejected ones were seen as negative. That's why it's important to understand what the planets, signs, and houses mean and then go back and study what the planets, signs, and houses mean over and over. And then when you're done, take a break and do it again. That way when the old books say weird things, you can squint and see the logic......sometimes. When you see the logic you can generalize the basic structure and update the delineation when necessary.

Of course all of this is in context. None of the above mentioned configurations mean anything without the context of the rest of the chart. Generalizations are fun, but each chart is different and the same configurations end up manifesting in different ways because of that.

 

[Bunraku]

Since Mars is excessive force, Mars afflicting Venus also makes people who are oversexed ....Mars is also in aspect the person might be oversexed AND degraded.....leading to some kinky stuff.

Certain planetary configurations can cause lecherousness in the most perverted, debauched, and libidinous of ways. If many significators point to foul signs, such as Aries, leo, Libra, and Capricorn, this will indicate the native will delight in the most lascivious, lustful, and lewd acts imaginable.

There is no saving these people. If confronted, they will double their excess in an act of rebellion, further indulging their filthy senses. Even more shocking is if Venus is with Mars (opposition, square, or conjunction), with Mars in his own signs and exaltations, consider all what was said above to be worse.


In search of the truth it is important that we need to further research this. It is currently 1 AM. I am very dedicated to this art, therefore late night research is a very common occurrence.

 

[Bunraku]

What does Ptolemy have to say with a Mars + Venus as predominators?

Allied with Venus, in honourable positions, Mars makes his subjects pleasing, cheerful, friendly, soft-living, happy, playful, artless, graceful, fond of p355 dancing, erotic, artistic, imitative, pleasure-loving, able to secure themselves property,145 masculine, and given to misconduct in matters of love, but still successful, circumspect, and sensible, difficult to convict and discreet, furthermore passionate for both young men and young women, spendthrifts, quick-tempered, and jealous.

The more positive significations are present, despite having issues.

However, if these predominators are corrupted...

In contrary positions he makes them leering, lascivious, profligate, indifferent, slanderers, adulterers, insolent, liars, deceivers, seducers of those both in their own families and in those of others, at the same time keen and insatiate of pleasure, corrupters of women and maidens, venturesome, ardent, unruly, treacherous, perjurers, easily influenced and of unsound mind, but sometimes likewise profligate, fond of adornment, bold, disposed to base practices, and shameless.

The more negative significators are present.

What seems to be the theme is their passionate and sexual natures channeled into useful or productive activities, or channeled into wasteful, useless, and non-productive activities.

 

[IleneK]

Peace upon all,

Traditional texts say that a «*good*» Venus (in dignity, free from infortunes, etc.) gives chastity and a «*bad*» Venus the opposite. (Specially once configured to Mars or a bad Mercury)

It is important to note that by Chastity, they mean no «*illegitimate*» sex i. e., out of wedlock. They decidedly do not mean a lack of sex. That’s the providence of Saturn.

But today’s widely-held belief is that Venus gives sex — Without regard to its «*legitimacy*»; whether it is in or out of wedlock.

What is your experience with Venus? Do you see people with a dignified and well-aspected Venus tend to marriage and fidelity or to being someone who has a lot of sex, in and out of wedlock?

One need only read a bit about mythological Venus to know that there was nothing particularly chaste about her. Venus is about attraction, chaste or unchaste.

So a favorable Venus means one is attractive.
How one acts upon or feels about one's ability to attract is determined by Moon, Mars, Merc and so on.

 

[Mohammad690]

My suspicion is that these comments on Venus have more to do with stability than morality, but the authors were talking about said stability through the filter of their respective cultures.

What's a dignified Venus? A stable Venus, giving you stable relationships that are long lasting a personally fulfilling. In the past this translates directly marriage, but nowadays this could also translate into stable relationships in general.

Venus with Jupiter in aspect was seen to be a good thing. Why? Because Jupiter stabilizes things and also has a tendency to promote life. With Venus procreation is a bonus as well. So this is a happy marriage with 2.5 kids, the whole nine yards. But that doesn't necessarily HAVE to be how it is, it could just indicate that the native's relationships are stable and healthy.

The malefics with Venus were seen as a bad thing. Why? Because the malefics are both all about separation. Mars does it quickly, Saturn does it slowly. Venus being afflicted by Mars is too much for Venus and causes breakups. Saturn makes relationships frigid and unrewarding. Since Mars is excessive force, Mars afflicting Venus also makes people who are oversexed and don't have stable relationships because they can't keep their pants on. Saturn afflicting Venus makes relationships unrewarding and in worst cases, completely degraded. If Mars is also in aspect the person might be oversexed AND degraded.....leading to some kinky stuff.

Mercury is often left out of conversations about Venus. But Mercury and Venus together as long as Mars is in some way associated can indicate promiscuity. Depending on other factors and in extreme scenarios, these people will sleep with anything that breathes. Nowadays we're more accepting of sexual fluidity, so there's a space for this nowadays. In the days when the traditional texts were written, such fluidity was a huge no no.

How about lack of sex? Venus associated with Saturn with Mars nowhere in aspect. So if we had Venus in one of Saturn's signs or Venus afflicted by Saturn and Saturn is in bad shape AND Mars is nowhere near either of them. The traditional texts say in no uncertain terms that these people die with their virginity firmly intact. The fire just isn't there it seems, so Mars isn't all bad when it comes to sexual stuff.

So I wouldn't take any of the statements about Venus as moral, but more statements about relative stability. Stable relationships were (and in many ways still are) seen as positive while unstable or socially rejected ones were seen as negative. That's why it's important to understand what the planets, signs, and houses mean and then go back and study what the planets, signs, and houses mean over and over. And then when you're done, take a break and do it again. That way when the old books say weird things, you can squint and see the logic......sometimes. When you see the logic you can generalize the basic structure and update the delineation when necessary.

Of course all of this is in context. None of the above mentioned configurations mean anything without the context of the rest of the chart. Generalizations are fun, but each chart is different and the same configurations end up manifesting in different ways because of that.

I agree with the cultural context, but not wholly with stability.

For example, in Ramsey’s mundane volume, when talking about Aries ingress he says if Venus be such and such, the condition of womenfolk will be well, they will be chaste, there will be love and merriment between man and wife, etc.

So the link is clear.

 

[Mohammad690]

What does Ptolemy have to say with a Mars + Venus as predominators?



The more positive significations are present, despite having issues.

However, if these predominators are corrupted...


The more negative significators are present.

What seems to be the theme is their passionate and sexual natures channeled into useful or productive activities, or channeled into wasteful, useless, and non-productive activities.

I can personally attest that configuration of Mars and Venus gives a very passionate nature

 

[Mohammad690]

One need only read a bit about mythological Venus to know that there was nothing particularly chaste about her. Venus is about attraction, chaste or unchaste.

So a favorable Venus means one is attractive.
How one acts upon or feels about one's ability to attract is determined by Moon, Mars, Merc and so on.

While I agree that planets represent archetypes first and foremost, I think that there is only so much that one can read into mythology.

Venus is all about attraction, but let’s draw a line between love and sex as they are not the same thing.

It stands to reason that if love is strong, there would be less adultery, hence more chastity, yes?

 

[petosiris]

Ptolemy looks at the soul and marriage in 3.13, 3.14 and 4.5
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3D*.html#13
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3D*.html#14
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/4B*.html#5

In 3.13 you have Saturn + Mars inoperative, Saturn + Venus inoperative (especially), any Jupiter + Mars, Jupiter + Venus inoperative, any Mars + Venus (especially), Venus inoperative, any Venus + Mercury (especially) predominating Moon + Mercury leading to licentiousness and baseness, and by inoperative I mean in their depressions, in houses, exaltations, triangles and terms of rulers with the contrary sect, evening retrograde or in the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th houses.

In 3.14 you have Sun, Moon, Mars and Venus all being masculine or feminine leading to emotional diseases of the soul per Aristotle - adulterous heterosexuality or homosexuality, and by masculine and feminine, and he means per 1.6 and 1.12:

(Sun, Saturn, Jupiter and Mars are masculine
Moon and Venus are feminine
Mercury is common
Those can change depending on the following

Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus and Mercury as morning stars are masculine
Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus and Mercury as evening stars are feminine

Eastern planets relative to the horizon (in 4, 5, 6, 10, 11 and 12 houses) are masculine
Western planets relative to the horizon (in 1, 2, 3, 7, 8 and 9 houses) are feminine

Planets in Aries, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius and Aquarius are masculine
Planets in Taurus, Cancer, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn and Pisces are feminine)

In 4.5 he looks at Mars in the nativities of men, and at Venus in the nativities of women for their attitude in matters of love by their configurations. For example ''for if Mars is separated from Venus and Saturn, but has the testimony of Jupiter, he produces men who are cleanly and decorous in love and who aim only at its natural use. But if he is accompanied by Saturn alone, he produces men cautious, hesitant, and frigid. If Venus and Jupiter are in aspect with him, he will produce men easily roused and passionate, who are, however, continent, hold themselves in check, and avoid unseemliness. With Venus alone, or if Jupiter also is with her, but Saturn is not present, he produces lustful, careless men, who seek their pleasures from every quarter; and if one of the planets is an evening and the other a morning star, men who have relations with both males and females, but no more than moderately inclined to either.''

This is all made relative to mundane astrology and culture, i.e. if one was born in Persia, he would hold in detestation relations with males, but would be inclined to marry his mother
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2A*.html#3 see also 4.10

 

[IleneK]

While I agree that planets represent archetypes first and foremost, I think that there is only so much that one can read into mythology.

Venus is all about attraction, but let’s draw a line between love and sex as they are not the same thing.

It stands to reason that if love is strong, there would be less adultery, hence more chastity, yes?

Well, if you prefer not to rely on the symbolism of mythology, which is understandable, then see the last paragraph of petosiris' post just above this one for a better example of the influence of the other planets in determining sex/love propensities.

His post is also found at
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1028529&postcount=11

 

[Mohammad690]

Thanks for your useful post. As we see here again, Ptolemy clearly associates an inflicted Venus with adultery and other orientations that he deems “unnatural”.

It would be interesting to see if this judgement holds water across the cultural spectrum and specially in our own modern times, as in the charts of celebrities, etc.

Ptolemy looks at the soul and marriage in 3.13, 3.14 and 4.5
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3D*.html#13
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/3D*.html#14
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/4B*.html#5

This is all made relative to mundane astrology and culture, i.e. if one was born in Persia, he would hold in detestation relations with males, but would be inclined to marry his mother
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/2A*.html#3 see also 4.10

As someone who is born in Persia, I can assure you that neither I, nor anybody I know is inclined to marry one’s own mother.

It goes to show you that Fake News is at least as old as Ptolemy.

 

[Mohammad690]

Well, if you prefer not to rely on the symbolism of mythology, which is understandable, then see the last paragraph of petosiris' post just above this one for a better example of the influence of the other planets in determining sex/love propensities.

His post is also found at
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1028529&postcount=11

Yeah. Exactly. Actually, I based the premise of this thread chiefly on Ptolemy, Valens and Ramsay.

 

[petosiris]

Thanks for your useful post. As we see here again, Ptolemy clearly associates an inflicted Venus with adultery and other orientations that he deems “unnatural”.

It would be interesting to see if this judgement holds water across the cultural spectrum and specially in our own modern times, as in the charts of celebrities, etc.



As someone who is born in Persia, I can assure you that neither I, nor anybody I know is inclined to marry one’s own mother.

It goes to show you that Fake News is at least as old as Ptolemy.

And no one in Egypt would marry his own sister. Times really have changed.

 

[petosiris]

Yeah. Exactly. Actually, I based the premise of this thread chiefly on Ptolemy, Valens and Ramsay.

Who is Ramsay?

 

[Mohammad690]

And no one in Egypt would marry his own sister. Times really have changed.

Pharaohs did publicly and with swag. It’s well-documented.

The other well-documented thing is Greek historians’ (specially Herodotus) hatred and false historiography of Persia.

That tradition still continues with movies like 300, that blatantly distort history.

Some things haven’t really changed

 

[Mohammad690]

Who is Ramsay?

He lived around the time of Lilly.

He compiled a lot of ancient material into a large volume, called Astrologia Restaurata.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Astrologia_Restaurata.html?id=FuPAJuj4MXIC

https://classicalastrologer.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/ramesey_birchfield_1.pdf

https://www.williamlamontastrologer...-Ramesey-and-his-book---Astrologia-Restaurata

https://www.amazon.in/Astrologia-Restaurata-Astrology-William-Ramesey/dp/1162632259

 

[JUPITERASC]

And no one in Egypt would marry his own sister.

Times really have changed.

 

[petosiris]

He lived around the time of Lilly.

He compiled a lot of ancient material into a large volume, called Astrologia Restaurata.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Astrologia_Restaurata.html?id=FuPAJuj4MXIC

https://classicalastrologer.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/ramesey_birchfield_1.pdf

https://www.williamlamontastrologer...-Ramesey-and-his-book---Astrologia-Restaurata

https://www.amazon.in/Astrologia-Restaurata-Astrology-William-Ramesey/dp/1162632259

I read a large part (mostly his religious defense of astrology and his introduction on the planets) of Astrology Restored a few weeks ago, but I forgot the name of the author for some reason. Thanks.