Venus debilitated in Virgo???

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

I mostly (myself) agree with the above definition of fall (and the above is an excellent elucidation of this concept in traditionalist terminology).
I would say, however, that the planet’s condition of fall will TEND to make it malefic in its influence, but that TENDENCY can either be furthered or reversed, depending upon other factors affecting that planet;
(for ME) these include Manilius decan (face), duodenary, star connection (conjunction or parallel), monomoiria, aspectual/declinational relationship(s)-if any-and a further modification (at least in a good % of cases) by analysis of the Pauline dodekametoirion (I have come to value the Pauline over the Egyptian)-most of our traditionalist friends would also use one of the 5 systems of terms (bounds), however I long ago supplanted these by the monomoiria (years ago—before I experimented with the monomoiria- I primarily used the Egyptian bounds) Also, I regard the entire sign as the fall of the given planet, rather than only certain degrees of that sign.

(please note that the above is presented ONLY as my PERSONAL opinion and methodology)

Indeed - the entire sign, however the affliction is said to be less once it is past the exact degree (Valens called it rising from the south)

 

[waybread]

The exaltations were originally Mesopotamian, and seem to be older than domiciles, detriments, and falls. The exaltations were simply places in constellations where planets seemed especially powerful. My hunch is that the Greeks then extended this system by signsz to include other areas of planetary strength and weakness.

A good book on Babylonian constellations is Gavin White, Babylonian Star Lore. They typically called Virgo the Furrow, as in a plowed field. The stars Spica and Vindemiatrix attest to Virgo's agricultural associations. Virgo was also associated with a woman carrying a palm frond, as date palms were so important in the Near East. Virgo's identity shifted around a bit subsequently: cf. the Muslim proscription against representing the human form. Virgo became a palm frond. European Virgo was sometimes portrayed as winged, sometimes not. To Europeans she was a chaste "maiden"-- which also carried connotations of the Virgin Mary. Virgo is considered a barren sign to gardeners because a virgin by definition is not pregnant or a mother.

 

[david starling]

A "barren sign to gardeners"? The Earth is barren during the Winter months in cold climates, not in the Autumn months.

 

[JUPITERASC]

The early works, those of about the first 500 years of Hellenistic astrology
reflect the foundational texts and fundamental features of the system.
The concept of detriment is conspicuously absent from them.
Yet traditional astrologers still tend not to notice.
Instead, intimations of the concept, occurring at the tail end of the Hellenistic period
are used to “...reconstruct...” a concept into a system that lacked it.

Detriment was, in fact, conspicuously absent even from most early Perso-Arabic astrology.
It was neither an integral part of Hellenistic astrology nor of early Perso-Arabic astrology

Chris Brennan and Benjamin Dykes unveil a new discovery about the origins of the exaltations
derived from a lost Hermetic text preserved by Abu Ma'shar.
2019 summer Keiji Yamamoto and Charles Burnett released their
long-awaited translation of The Great Introduction to Astrology by the 9th century astrologer Abu Ma'shar.
This was the first time this text has been translated into English in its entirety.
Abu Ma'shar frequently cites a lost Greek text attributed to Hermes Trismegistus.
This appears to be the same text called the Panaretos
that the 4th century astrologer Paulus Alexandrinus drew on
for his treatment of seven planets Lots
although Abu Ma'shar shares much more from the text than Paulus did.

The Hermes material preserved by Abu Ma'shar
contains a set of rationales for the domicile and exaltation schemes that are unique
and it seems to preserve what may be the original conceptual rationales for both of those schemes.



BUT

Update 9/4-9/20: https://sevenstarsastrology.com/detriment/​

A little over a month ago, this article was mentioned on a podcast
where its arguments were misrepresented
support for the arguments were left out
and specious “...additional evidence...”
for the reconstruction of a Hellenistic doctrine of detriment was put forth.
I’ve addressed the issues with the podcast arguments and presentation in some depth in a separate article
The Anachronism of Hellenistic Detriment, which you can find by clicking on that title.

The fact that arguments and evidence presented in a long article were misrepresented to a popular audience
that would be disinclined to read through it on the web
was a primary motivation for changes.
Now one can find relevant information faster and more conveniently
I have additionally updated some of the contents of this article
notes on the meaning of ‘..enantios...’
notes on a passage recently discovered in Anubio
treatment of the technique of examining the ruler’s configuration
treatment of Brennan’s reconstruction
and notes on the possibility of textual interpolation.

.
.

 

[dr. farr]

Indeed - the entire sign, however the affliction is said to be less once it is past the exact degree (Valens called it rising from the south)

Notice here and in many other places in the old time literature that everything is looked at from the northern hemisphere perspective—north /going north is “good”, south/going south is “bad”; I suggest that ultimately (originally) this had to do with visibility models, rather than mathematical/geometrical/philosophical models.

 

[dr. farr]

A "barren sign to gardeners"? The Earth is barren during the Winter months in cold climates, not in the Autumn months.

That is another doctrine I have come by experiene to question (personal opinion) I definitely believe I have seen evidence of cancer, Scorpio and Taurus being “fertile” in practice, but I cannot say at all, from experionce, of the other signs, so (for me) in delineation-except for the 3 signs mentioned-I have not paid much attention to this doctrine.

 

[waybread]

A "barren sign to gardeners"? The Earth is barren during the Winter months in cold climates, not in the Autumn months.

David, I think we have to look at climates of the Near East and Mediterranean regions, where astrology developed. The Mediterranean climate is similar to southern California, with cool rainy winters and long, hot dry summers. Winter wheat and barley, planted just prior to the onset of autumn rains, grew during the winter, and were ready for harvest in spring (barley) and early summer (wheat.) The important agricultural distinction is life-giving rain vs. summer drought, not heat vs. vs. winter cold. Virgo was probably an important month for the grape harvest; but otherwise was probably at the end of the long dry summer season. The autumn rainy season probably started in Libra or Scorpio. Anyway, check out a more modern book, Louise Riotte, Planetary Planting. The most fertile signs are the water signs. Venus-ruled Libra and Taurus are moderately fertile; with Capricorn having some fertility. Generally the air and fire signs (i. e., masculine signs) are not fertile.

 

[david starling]

David, I think we have to look at climates of the Near East and Mediterranean regions, where astrology developed. The Mediterranean climate is similar to southern California, with cool rainy winters and long, hot dry summers. Winter wheat and barley, planted just prior to the onset of autumn rains, grew during the winter, and were ready for harvest in spring (barley) and early summer (wheat.) The important agricultural distinction is life-giving rain vs. summer drought, not heat vs. vs. winter cold. Virgo was probably an important month for the grape harvest; but otherwise was probably at the end of the long dry summer season. The autumn rainy season probably started in Libra or Scorpio. Anyway, check out a more modern book, Louise Riotte, Planetary Planting. The most fertile signs are the water signs. Venus-ruled Libra and Taurus are moderately fertile; with Capricorn having some fertility. Generally the air and fire signs (i. e., masculine signs) are not fertile.

So, it's climate-dependent. This nicely explains the history of the "barren" and "fertile" labels for certain climates, but I wouldn't apply it to the signs themselves. And, the order of seasons near the Equator and in the Southern hemisphere don't match up with those of the Northern hemisphere.

 

[dr. farr]

right, because in my opinion all of the major systems developed from a purely northern hemisphere perspective

 

[david starling]

right, because in my opinion all of the major systems developed from a purely northern hemisphere perspective

But also, from a Fertile Crescent perspective. That's getting somewhat too location-dependent, even in the Northern hemisphere, imo.

 

[dr. farr]

me too-in my personal OPINION I have come to question the UNIVERSALITY of several doctrines-or parts of doctrines-which have seemed to me to be northern hemisphere centric-that they apply to this hemisphere-that they “work” in this hemisphere-yeah, fine, but are they ultimately UNIVERSAL, or in fact are they only RELATIVE?


this problem puzzled 16th century astrologers, like Cardan-he modified many doctrines into north/south perspectives to try to account for the reversal of hemispheric perspectives-however his ideas never caught on, and had been forgotten by the 18th century, when astrology in the west itself fell into abeyance.

 

[dr. farr]

David, I think we have to look at climates of the Near East and Mediterranean regions, where astrology developed. The Mediterranean climate is similar to southern California, with cool rainy winters and long, hot dry summers. Winter wheat and barley, planted just prior to the onset of autumn rains, grew during the winter, and were ready for harvest in spring (barley) and early summer (wheat.) The important agricultural distinction is life-giving rain vs. summer drought, not heat vs. vs. winter cold. Virgo was probably an important month for the grape harvest; but otherwise was probably at the end of the long dry summer season. The autumn rainy season probably started in Libra or Scorpio. Anyway, check out a more modern book, Louise Riotte, Planetary Planting. The most fertile signs are the water signs. Venus-ruled Libra and Taurus are moderately fertile; with Capricorn having some fertility. Generally the air and fire signs (i. e., masculine signs) are not fertile.

I must amend my earlier post about “fertile & barren”; I was referring to my experience in typical delineation-but I admit that I have never delineated an electional chart for AGRICULTURAL purposes-perhaps if I had my outlook relative to this matter would be different-I do live in the northern hemisphere (California)

 

[david starling]

I must amend my earlier post about “fertile & barren”; I was referring to my experience in typical delineation-but I admit that I have never delineated an electional chart for AGRICULTURAL purposes-perhaps if I had my outlook relative to this matter would be different-I do live in the northern hemisphere (California)

One strong Greek myth is about Persephone as goddess of Spring in the Northern hemisphere. Without Persephone, the Earth became barren, and Pluto had to allow her to leave the Underworld as his wife, and to rejoin her mother Demeter to restore Earth's fertility for 6 months.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I must amend my earlier post about “fertile & barren”; I was referring to my experience in typical delineation-but I admit that I have never delineated an electional chart for AGRICULTURAL purposes-perhaps if I had my outlook relative to this matter would be different-I do live in the northern hemisphere (California)

“...It is a good idea to observe one sign after another, and if two agree
it is more hopeful, while with a third you can be confident...”
(Aratus, Phaenomena, 1142-1154, trans. Kidd, 2004, p. 157)


“...In whatever is signified, this must chiefly be noted: if it has only one testimony, it is routine (vulgare);
if two, it will be stronger;
if three, complete[…]”
(Abu ‘Ali al-Khayyat, On the Judgments of Nativities, 50, trans. Dykes, 2009, Persian Nativities, vol. 1, p. 331)

Delineating astrology without lots, twelfth-parts, and aspects by antiscia (among other things)
is akin to trying to read a page with over half the words missing.
The twelfth-part divisions are nearly as old as the regularized zodiac itself.
They were an ubiquitous part of Babylonian, Hellenistic, and Perso-Arabic astrology.
Some Hellenistic astrologers regarded them as the key to the secrets of the natal chart.

The ancients stressed how the twelfth-parts are responsible for major modulations
in planetary signification within a sign.
In this sense, dignity relating to twelfth-part positions may be even more important
than that related to natal positions.
The twelfth-parts positions
reinforce
or
contradict
significations in the natal chart.
It is these reinforcements and contradictions that help us to correctly interpret the chart

.

 

[dr. farr]

Yeah- I regularly use duodenaries in delineation. Plus quite a few other old time methods, which make up a good deal of my practical eclecticism (or perhaps one might call it “mongrelism”-Dr. Mongrel!)

 

[david starling]

I've chosen a new descriptive word in place of "in its fall" and/or "depressed":
Atypical

The nature of each planet determines in what way it becomes atypical.

 

[david starling]

And, in place of "afflicted" and/or "in detriment":
Challenged

The nature of each planet determines HOW it reacts to being challenged.

 

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

I've chosen a new descriptive word in place of "in its fall" and/or "depressed":
Atypical

I don't think this captures the point of the placement.
A fall is literally a humilation, the planet is not liked there. A planet in his exaltation is like a man in his kingdom, his throne. Like when someone is super popular and can do no wrong.

 

[david starling]

I don't think this captures the point of the placement.
A fall is literally a humilation, the planet is not liked there. A planet in his exaltation is like a man in his kingdom, his throne. Like when someone is super popular and can do no wrong.

That's when it's at its most TYPICAL, not necessarily at its most popular.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I don't think this captures the point of the placement.
A fall is literally a humilation, the planet is not liked there.

Indeed

A planet in his exaltation is like a man in his kingdom, his throne. Like when someone is super popular and can do no wrong.