Venus debilitated in Virgo???

[david starling]

That's when it's at its most TYPICAL, not necessarily at its most popular.

What I'm getting at, is, if you want to know the true NATURE of a planet's effect, that's when it's in its exalted state, typical of that particular planet. Also, when it's domiciled, and unchallenged in its own sign.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I don't think this captures the point of the placement.
A fall is literally a humilation, the planet is not liked there. A planet in his exaltation is like a man in his kingdom, his throne. Like when someone is super popular and can do no wrong.

What I'm getting at, is, if you want to know the true NATURE of a planet's effect, that's when it's in its exalted state, typical of that particular planet. Also, when it's domiciled, and unchallenged in its own sign.

clearly
neither humiliation
nor
it's antithesis
super popularity
are usual/average states

.

 

[david starling]

It's about the language. Is the effect of the Sun in Libra really "depression and humiliation"? Or, just atypical of its usual nature?

I'm saying it's the latter.

 

[JUPITERASC]

clearly
neither humiliation
nor
it's antithesis
super popularity
are usual/average states

It's about the language. Is the effect of the Sun in Libra really "depression and humiliation"? Or, just atypical of its usual nature?

I'm saying it's the latter.

i.e.
exaltation is neither usual nor average
likewise
humiliation is neither usual nor average

.

 

[dr. farr]

Remember we are talking only about essential states here-that essential state CAN BE modified by other conditions affecting the planet, the so-called accidentals-these include modifications by connections (aspects etc) and by shadow placements (dodekatemoiria), which again can bring in new essential factors and additional new accidental factors to further modify the original essential state; to my understanding our final estimation of the planets condition is the TOTALITY of both original + dodekatemoirion essentials + accidentals, not undue emphasis on only one class-it’s simpler to use only one class (eg essentials of original placement) but I contend that to do so is often misleading.
Dodeks were forgotten by the Arabic transitional era and so did not play any role in later traditional astrology, which I believe was an unfortunate development-essential states of original placements became almost everything, and it seems that even modifying accidentals of original placements got the short end of the stick in delineation (my opinion) in later authors.

 

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

That's when it's at its most TYPICAL, not necessarily at its most popular.

I disagree. A planet in exaltation is extremely powerful and prominent, it's not like that all the time.
When it's in exaltation, it's like a king who is loved by his people, and can easily take action
When it's in fall, it's like a person who is extremely disliked - anything he does will be wrong

 

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

Remember we are talking only about essential states here-that essential state CAN BE modified by other conditions affecting the planet, the so-called accidentals-these include modifications by connections (aspects etc) and by shadow placements (dodekatemoiria), which again can bring in new essential factors and additional new accidental factors to further modify the original essential state; to my understanding our final estimation of the planets condition is the TOTALITY of both original + dodekatemoirion essentials + accidentals, not undue emphasis on only one class-it’s simpler to use only one class (eg essentials of original placement) but I contend that to do so is often misleading.
Dodeks were forgotten by the Arabic transitional era and so did not play any role in later traditional astrology, which I believe was an unfortunate development-essential states of original placements became almost everything, and it seems that even modifying accidentals of original placements got the short end of the stick in delineation (my opinion) in later authors.

agree, but for certain topics fall/exaltation can be very indicative.

If someone is asking about prominence, and has both the sun and the moon in their depression, and the ac lord in teh depression, it's very unlikely that such a person will be promiment, vs someone who has Sun in 10th in Aries on the MC. (I find detriment doesn't stop prominence, but fall does)

 

[sentR89day]

Honestly if Venus in Virgo learns to go by their heart along with their head things could work out! I honestly don't believe that anyone is 'doomed' because of a detriment, or a fall! They can, however, learn how to balance energies in their charts!

 

[tikana]

Honestly if Venus in Virgo learns to go by their heart along with their head things could work out! I honestly don't believe that anyone is 'doomed' because of a detriment, or a fall! They can, however, learn how to balance energies in their charts!

Venus is not entirely debilitated in virgo.
Venus in virgo retains dignity in daylight (triplicity), in terms from 7 to 13 degree, and in face from 11 10 to 20.

so you might have 2 minor dignities which equals to fall = so they are neutral. Now you need to look are a couple of things. a. what is venus applying to and separating from. Then if it is in joy house *5*, then if it is angular +1, succeedent - 0, cadent -1. In front or behind sun, any positive aspect to POF, direct not slowing down and etc or gaining speed (look up the essential and accidental dignity by planet chart)

You might have a triple minor dignity Venus in daytime, degree from10 to 13 so you get triplicity, face and term that is def outweigh the fall status.

There are A lot of things that need to be taken into a consideration.

 

[AlterAntiscia]

Venus is not entirely debilitated in virgo.
Venus in virgo retains dignity in daylight (triplicity), in terms from 7 to 13 degree, and in face from 11 10 to 20.

so you might have 2 minor dignities which equals to fall = so they are neutral. Now you need to look are a couple of things. a. what is venus applying to and separating from. Then if it is in joy house *5*, then if it is angular +1, succeedent - 0, cadent -1. In front or behind sun, any positive aspect to POF, direct not slowing down and etc or gaining speed (look up the essential and accidental dignity by planet chart)

You might have a triple minor dignity Venus in daytime, degree from10 to 13 so you get triplicity, face and term that is def outweigh the fall status.

There are A lot of things that need to be taken into a consideration.

This must be similar to how Mars in Cancer retains triplicity by day & night (Ptolemy) ?

 

[tikana]

This must be similar to how Mars in Cancer retains triplicity by day & night (Ptolemy) ?

the convo is about virgo venus if you wish to discuss Mars create a new thread

 

[AlterAntiscia]

the convo is about virgo venus if you wish to discuss Mars create a new thread

Not necessary, Tikana
Although I do imagine they are similar being debilitated by sign rulership but being essentially dignified some other way.. since we are on the subject of Venus & Essential Debility

 

[david starling]

Not necessary, Tikana
Although I do imagine they are similar being debilitated by sign rulership but being essentially dignified some other way.. since we are on the subject of Venus & Essential Debility

Alter, why NOT start a specific thread about it? One that focuses directly on Mars, instead of making it an add-on.

 

[tikana]

Not necessary, Tikana
Although I do imagine they are similar being debilitated by sign rulership but being essentially dignified some other way.. since we are on the subject of Venus & Essential Debility

in quick answer NO it is NOT the same venus in virgo vs mars in cancer not even close! I'd give you homework to dig up why Virgo in Venus is not the same as Mars in Cancer.

 

[AlterAntiscia]

in quick answer NO it is NOT the same venus in virgo vs mars in cancer not even close! I'd give you homework to dig up why Virgo in Venus is not the same as Mars in Cancer.

Ah I supposed I am misunderstanding something then… I was referring to this source :

https://www.astronor.com/dignities.htm where he says “Mars is both in triplicity and fall in Cancer - he is hindered by infections and affections, but still has still access to a resourceful circle and will 'Send round the Hat' in collection for a good cause. Venus is in her fall in Virgo but rules the triplicity by day, in which case she will offer support in the same manner as Mars in Cancer, although it might involve collecting signatures or momentum for a vote.”

I am interested in this homework you mention and may create a thread centered around Mars in Cancer then.

 

[Antiks72]

I accept that Venus is in an unfriendly atmosphere when posited in Virgo, but this would be modified by the decan it is in (I use the very old time Manilius Decans) + the degree occupied (monomoiria) plus the duodenary occupied plus the term connection (used by many of our traditionalist friends) plus any star connections plus Venus aspectual and declinational relationships, so that it is POSSIBLE that Venus in its fall in Virgo could actually exert an overall very benefic influence,depending upon these other influences upon it in the specific chart.
Remember that domicile/detriment/exaltation/fall = ONLY ONE OF SEVERAL FACTORS showing the NET CONDITION of a given planet In each particular chart.

Lots, also. Lot of Eros in particular. Lot of exaltation in the 5th or 7th or aspecting Venus.

 

[Humanitarian]

first of all vedic is 15 degrees earlier than venus in virgo in western

i dont read vedic. Venus may not be as debilitated as you think because if it is elevated or placed in angular houses you might get a boost or if she aspects trine or sextile applying to jupiter. in table of dignity you can find if your venus has triplicity and face or term dignities which makes a major dignity then that evens out the fall. effect

all dends on factors how mezzed up is your venus.

Notes to Tikana: Vedic degrees are different from the Tropical chart due to the precession of the equinox in Earth (A switch of seasons), because Vedic Astrology is calculated by the sidereal method, which use the Sidereal Vernal Point's difference from the 0° Aries point as the difference between tropical degrees and sidereal degrees

 

[tikana]

Notes to Tikana: Vedic degrees are different from the Tropical chart due to the precession of the equinox in Earth (A switch of seasons), because Vedic Astrology is calculated by the sidereal method, which use the Sidereal Vernal Point's difference from the 0° Aries point as the difference between tropical degrees and sidereal degrees

I already mentioned that. I am replying from a western astrology standpoint. I could care less for vedic, tbh.