Astrology, autism, and Internet extremism

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waybread

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Sensitivity is requested. Let's think about neuro-diversity vs. a disorder.

The astrology board requires posts to have some astrological content. Just to it doesn't morph into a chat session.

Autistic people famous for their achievements include:
animal scientist Temple Grandin,
and climate actvist Greta Thunberg

Periodically a question comes up about whether autism can be detected in a horoscope. My personal belief is that autism operates across such a wide spectrum that no, probably not. Asperger's syndrome on the high -functioning end of the spectrum includes many extremely bright and successful people. Other people with autism will need care their entire lives. However, these articles are by astrologers who have seriously examined the question:



One book review that recently brought this issue to my attention is a July 12 WaPo review of Elle Reeve, Black Pill: How I witnessed the Darkest Corners of the Internet Come to Life, Poison Society, and Capture American Politics. The "black pill" is an illusion to the "red pill" in the film, The Matrix. Someone who swallows the red pill sees political reality-as-given as deceptive, and designed to fool ordinary people into docility. By extension, the "black pill" convinces people who take it that the world is master-minded by corrupt elites, and that social collapse is immanent. Conspiratorial social media content and its forums tend to become more extreme and "darker" over time, and increasingly crosses the boundaries from fringe to mainstream media.

What hit me between the eyes was an expert telling Reeves that, "autistic people can be especially vulnerable to extremist on-line communities" for three reasons:

1. An on-line community, whether mellow or extremist, allows autistic people to socialize without the social anxiety of actual human contact.

2. The extremist worldview tends to be rigid and predictable, which makes it easier for an autistic person to follow a model of how the world works (independently of its correctness of fallacies.)

3. Autistic people on extremist forums can peruse their archives, so people with difficulty in articulating their own ideas "can go back in time and read [archived posts] to understand how users talked to each other and then mimic those interactions."

I would add a 4th one here: that extremist political positions show a lack of feeling for human misery, such as for refugees, war victims, or the poor. Some people with autism feel overwhelmed by other people's emotions or have difficulty feeling empathy.

It occurred to me that the qualities described above (social anxiety, preference for predictability, mimicry of others' expressions vs. spontaneously creating one's own,) should have astrological signatures.

This isn't to say that extremist media set out to recruit or exploit autistic people, but that they are a susceptible population for reasons that have to do with the nature of autism.

If you are a person with autism or a familiar with this condition I hope you will reply to this OP.
 
This isn't to suggest that people with autism inevitably turn to right wing political extremism. One example on the liberal end of the scale is climate activist Greta Thunberg, with Asperger's Syndrome. Here chart with a link to her extensive Wikipedia autobiography at:

Here is the horoscope for animal scientist Temple Grandin:

As a young woman, Grandin had difficulty relating to people but felt a deep empathy for livestock, which led to her designing humane improvements to slaughter facilities
 
Split Brain?
Gazzaniga and Sperry's split-brain research is now legendary. One of their child participants, Paul S., had a fully functional language center in both hemispheres. This allowed the researchers to question each side of the brain. When they asked the right side what their patient wanted to be when he grew up, he replied, "an automobile racer." When they posed the same question to the left, however, he responded, "a draftsman." Another patient pulled down his pants with the left hand and back up with the right in a continuing struggle. On a different occasion, this same patient's left hand made an attempt to strike the unsuspecting wife as the right hand grabbed the villainous limp to stop it.
 
I'm responding as i'm disabled with a very damaged spinal cord which is part of the brain!
I study parans which is the oldest of all astrology and deals with the angles if we don't have birth time.
With Greta Thunberg i can see how she become famous by using the three starts of the day, one of which is being midnight and Sirius is conjunct M.C. by projected measure.
555-234.jpg
 
Lyn Hayes has written about Thunberg's chart - or what we know of it (no TOB)!

She has a close Sun conjunct Chiron, which I didn't know. I also see her Venus conjunct Uranus is exact, which might make relationships difficult - she has Mars square Uranus too, which comes as no surprise. Grown-up Gréta is now busy living the life of a radical activist - demonstrating blockading, getting arrested. Fun times! Maybe Uranus rules her chart?

The Saturn/Pluto opposition is not as close as I thought, though I suspect it may be angular. Saturn/Pluto is no breeze, and is seemingly unable to dodge the tougher questions of what life is all about - Tarnas seems to have an excellent grasp of this aspect, in Cosmos and Psyche.

Kant apparently asked the questions about human perception way before Kanner and Asperger even conceived their ideas on what it is that allows our tiny minds to make sense of the world. Or to make sense of sensations?

I understand he put a lot of store into 'a priori' assumptions that allow us, to interpret what inputs the brain. The a priori thing is what allows people to know what to expect next time they see a dog, a train, or scrambled eggs, to make sense of these.

This question becomes pertinent when we consider the Turing test for AI software, and androids. Science fiction had been looking at this question for years until now, where some androids and software apparently can and do pass the Turing test. Star Trek's Android Data has been a role model for people with autism, and he does appear to have this Kantian difficulty with drawing meaningful wholes out of....erm, the data with which he is presented. Interestingly, the character Brent Spiner claims that he has nothing of Data's childlike innocence, but is far more at home with evil roles. And Data does have a psychopathic evil twin. Maybe psychopathy is the dark twin of autism....

For those interested in the dark side of autism and social media, one good (or bad) place to start could be of one Elliott Rodgers, who went on a killing spree because no girl would have him, even though he was wonderful and should have been able to have any girl he wanted (according to him). He was said to have suffered from a narcissist disorder , but was also thought to be on the spectrum. Here's a link to his chart, not sure if the birth time is accurate, but at least it is t a noon chart:
 
Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

Monk, your work on parans is always impressive. Perhaps there are other neurological conditions that belong here. I found that autism is often discussed alongside ADD (ADHD.)

Nexus, I am a Trekkie, TNG only, though. In addition to Lore (Data's evil brother) there were fascinating questions about human-machine interfaces. The Borg being a more horrifying one. and Data's right to engineer a daughter (Lal) a truly poignant one. Cf also the Exocomps in episode 135, where a decision had to be made about whether these little robots possessed the qualities of sentient beings.

There is also a belief that Immanuel Kant was autistic (Asperger's), but I'm skeptical of pop diagnoses of historical figures.

I am a news junkie, and my morning often starts with scrolling through several news apps. I just picked up another one pertinent to the OP, a NYT interview with Harvard U. political scientist, Robert Putnam, author of Bowling Alone. One of his themes is individual American's deepening social isolation -- probably a global problem.

Putnam said, "... especially young men who are isolated, are vulnerable to the appeals of some false community." This isn't a new phenomenon: Germany saw it in the 1930s. Politically, people's ties are less to the concept of democracy and a civil society and more to a "them against us" divisiveness.

I prefer to think of autism in terms of neuro-diversity, but when people by nature are less likely to socialize with actual face time, they may seek out an on-line community that opposes change and provides a template to react against groups who would seemingly disrupt an ordered, structured worldview.

It's interesting to look at these three charts. I think I could read in them the climate activist, the violent loner, and the advocate for humane livestock treatment.

Grandin's Aquarian moon closely opposed by Saturn-Pluto could show a personal reaction to cruelty; perhaps addressed through the medium of animal science (science being Aquarian/Uranian.)

There seems to be a Uranian connection with these 3 examples, although it might vanish as more horoscopes are studied.
Rodger: moon-Uranus conjunction.
Thunberg: Aqua Uranus square Mars.
 
Waybread

I don't live in the UK and that kind of SF didn't really kick off in Hungary. I enjoyed the original Trek and closely followed the first few TNG terms. I was glad the Borg came along, interesting to see how Seven of Nine took on the mantle of the the human Outsider, from Spock and Data.

As for Kant, Pop psychology may or may not be right about him being autistic, but what interests me now about him was the way his questions about the nature of perception and how we make sense of the world seem like quintessentially 'autistic' issues.

I didn't know Rodger had a Moon/Uranus conjunction. Whatever was wrong with him seemed to go far beyond not having enough social skills to chat up a girl, though.

I think I mentioned that the British AA once published the charts of two children diagnosed with autism, each with very close hard Moon/Saturn aspects, and I remarked that these charts may have been cherry-picked for refrigerator mothers. But Moon/Saturn could be down to an innate inability to connect. As for Uranus, the genius/madness thing has been around practically since it was discovered.

Liz Greene published a case study on a family, in The Astrology of Fate, wherein one family member suffered autism of the institutionalised head-banging kind. Her chart is published, along with those of all the family members. But this was in the 80's, and Greene believed that this was about a family scapegoating an identified patient and the family hating on her so much it made her that way. So back to refrigerator mothers.

Actually from the description given, it sounds more as though the mother had the sensory and gatro-intentional issues that often plague the autistic population. So fate may have been around, but less to do with House of Usher-type dynamics.

More well-known people have been coming out in recent years, and declaring their autism: Elon Musk, Anthnony Hopkins, Darryl Hannah, who by the way made a fantastic renegade replicant in Blade Runner.
 
Looking at Rodger: that Moon Uranus conjunction is pretty wide, and he was part of the Uranus conjunct Neptune generation. He had Pluto on his IC, which looks like some kind of early abuse? Mercury on his Ascendant: maybe he defined himself through whoever he communicated with most (online). Jupiter is within being in a zone of high intensity, but would need to be closer to the 11th House cusp for highest intensity. Mars and Venus conjunct, but in, ahem, Virgo. He was bitter over being over an incel.

He reminds me of that other case, of the boy who was the perpetrator of the Sandy Hook killing. He too was active on social media, had no friends otherwise though, and was diagnosed with autism. No full birth data for him, just the birth date.
 
It's interesting to look at these three charts. I think I could read in them the climate activist, the violent loner, and the advocate for humane livestock treatment.
Hindsight astrology is always easier than foresight attempts at it, especially with known people whose external lives are well documented.
It's a different case with an unknown chart and answering the question if it is that of one with issues on the autism spectrum.

The Oxford astrologer article mentioned often states 'thought to have' issues on the autism scale. Is that proof without diagnosis?

Grandin's Aquarian moon closely opposed by Saturn-Pluto could show a personal reaction to cruelty; perhaps addressed through the medium of animal science (science being Aquarian/Uranian.)
Seeing her chart many moons ago, I queried whether she is actually an autist, or diagnosed as such ( during tr. Saturn conjunct Virgo stellium) before the autism scale conditions were recognised as they are today. Apparently she is deaf and dumb. It doesn't take much imagination to understand the internal rage (Mars in Cancer?, fixed T-square?)) of a child unable to outwardly express itself and, consequently, being misunderstood ( Neptune, ruler intercepted Pisces in 3rd house, and/or trad. ruler Jupiter in 12th) and 'labelled' (very Virgo!) as such.

Generation planet Uranus (associated with 'neurodivergence' (thanks always to Osamenor for introducing me to that word on the board)) in Gemini ... the mental sign ... is unaspected in the chart. So what makes it personal as an alternative to 'what another generally thinks' ????
Moon in Aquarius forms the T-square in Fixed signs. Yet Mercury is well-aspected UNLESS a 75* degree (struggle?) to Jupiter can be included. Where is, or what defines 'the autism (scale) link'?

My daughter once commented in jest, 'Everyone is autistic'. Everyone has their quirks in one way or another. Are we Uranus in Gemini. Libra, Aquarius types more mentally (highly strung, as my mother thought of me) divergent than other signs?????;):)
 
There are many people getting diagnosed in their 40's and beyond, who definitely never knew why their lives were so difficult until now: difficulties socially, difficulties dealing with the world of work, difficulties dealing with sensory issues. It never sounds like a bundle of fun when you read these accounts. It's more than just having a few idiosyncracies IMHO.
 
Hindsight astrology is always easier than foresight attempts at it, especially with known people whose external lives are well documented.
It's a different case with an unknown chart and answering the question if it is that of one with issues on the autism spectrum.

The Oxford astrologer article mentioned often states 'thought to have' issues on the autism scale. Is that proof without diagnosis?


Seeing her chart many moons ago, I queried whether she is actually an autist, or diagnosed as such ( during tr. Saturn conjunct Virgo stellium) before the autism scale conditions were recognised as they are today. Apparently she is deaf and dumb. It doesn't take much imagination to understand the internal rage (Mars in Cancer?, fixed T-square?)) of a child unable to outwardly express itself and, consequently, being misunderstood ( Neptune, ruler intercepted Pisces in 3rd house, and/or trad. ruler Jupiter in 12th) and 'labelled' (very Virgo!) as such.

Generation planet Uranus (associated with 'neurodivergence' (thanks always to Osamenor for introducing me to that word on the board)) in Gemini ... the mental sign ... is unaspected in the chart. So what makes it personal as an alternative to 'what another generally thinks' ????
Moon in Aquarius forms the T-square in Fixed signs. Yet Mercury is well-aspected UNLESS a 75* degree (struggle?) to Jupiter can be included. Where is, or what defines 'the autism (scale) link'?

My daughter once commented in jest, 'Everyone is autistic'. Everyone has their quirks in one way or another. Are we Uranus in Gemini. Libra, Aquarius types more mentally (highly strung, as my mother thought of me) divergent than other signs?????;):)
Just a few corrections.

No, she is not "deaf and dumb."

You might enjoy reading more about Temple Grandin, including her published books about living with autism. As a two-year old, (b. 1947) she was diagnosed with "brain damage" at a time when autism was poorly understood. Fortunately her wealthy parents went to a lot of effort to have her specially educated in her early years; from which point she went on to get her doctorate in animal science. Today Grandin's diagnosis is autistic savant. She is highly intelligent, as are many neuro-divergent people Her website includes several interviews and speaking engagements. She is still a Professor of Animal Sciences at Colorado State University, a major agricultural campus.


In her early autobiography, Grandin talks about occasional feelings of anger, such as when her carefully designed procedures for the humane slaughter of beef cattle were ignored by a slaughterhouse employee who thought he knew better, to the point where the animals panicked. I'd be upset about that, too. One thing squares can contribute to are massive amounts of hard work. Which seems more apt in her case.

Somehow I don't see the humor in your daughter's comment. Autism is not a "quirk," and people on the lower-functioning part of the spectrum may require care for life. While it is good to normalize autism in some regards, it is not about being high-strung. Most people of my generation with Uranus in Gemini are not autistic, whatever other "quirks" or nervousness we may express.
 
Just a few corrections.

No, she is not "deaf and dumb''

When researching an astrological correspondence with autism many years back this information was provided on a website with a photo of Grandin by a horse (re: her work with livestock?). Never having heard of her before I had no reason to query its source, whilst it did raise questions in my mind as a result of the chart's association with autism.
Somehow I don't see the humor in your daughter's comment. Autism is not a "quirk," and people on the lower-functioning part of the spectrum may require care for life. While it is good to normalize autism in some regards, it is not about being high-strung. Most people of my generation with Uranus in Gemini are not autistic, whatever other "quirks" or nervousness we may express.
Maybe it's a case of where and how one's humour lies and being able to place comments in a context other than serious.
I recall a poster many years back making the comment that 'all jokes are at someone else's expense'. I agree with the thoughts, yet that's life. I guess it depends upon how one's Mercury is placed?
 
I think it's more about sensitivity and respect for people with an actual autism spectrum disorder diagnosis. To suggest that "everyone has autism" dismisses the very real impact that autism can have on the individuals who live with it -- and their families. A "quirk" is not a diagnosed neurological or mental health condition.

I'm thinking of a friend long ago, whose young son was diagnosed as a toddler. He was climbing tall bookshelves when their backs were turned, and the parents couldn't get him to stop. He was non-verbal. My friend, training as a speech pathologist, had a bit more success in communicating with her son in simple sign-language. An acquaintance had two autistic sons, one of whom would need care for life. When I knew her, she had the job and her husband stayed home with the kids.

I can only imagine how these stressed mothers would have responded to the joke that "everyone has autism."

It can be really hard for autistic kids and their teachers when the children are mainstreamed in a regular classroom. My daughter taught one who would throw chairs when upset, and generally be belligerent to other children. My daughter could calm him by reading to him individually; but that didn't free her to teach the rest of the class. Autistic children are often bullied at school because they come across as asocial and different.




The topic I tried to raise in the OP is how the nature of autism itself can make this population especially vulnerable to extremist political communications. The Internet offers interaction without the need for eye contact, and diminishes the social anxiety of personal ecounters. An alt-right site can convey a sense of rectitude through reversion to traditional values, and it offers autistic people templates on how to interact (including for autistic people who like their computers but don't communicate verbally well).

Coming up with astrological signatures is difficult, because autism operates across a spectrum, with different manifestations. But I wondered whether autistic people are vulnerable to on-line extremism, principally because of how they neurologically process information. With a major US election on the horizon, there's something riding on this.

There's probably some Mercury in there somewhere. Oftentimes there is a moon-Uranus, moon-Saturn, or Mercury-Saturn link with mental health. I think Saturn often figures in depression, and Uranus in behavior that strikes others as erratic. We have the expression "mental health" whereas I think "emotional health" is probably more astrologically accurate.

I believe Mercury rules the nervous system generally; whereas Uranus and Aquarius are more associated with its disorders.
 
I think it's more about sensitivity and respect for people with an actual autism spectrum disorder diagnosis. To suggest that "everyone has autism" dismisses the very real impact that autism can have on the individuals who live with it -- and their families. A "quirk" is not a diagnosed neurological or mental health condition.
You are truly taking what was written out of all proportion, and turning its meaning into something it wasn't.
We are of different views regarding what was meant. It's your choice to read it in a negative light, which doesn't make it so.
I'm thinking of a friend long ago, whose young son was diagnosed as a toddler. He was climbing tall bookshelves when their backs were turned, and the parents couldn't get him to stop. He was non-verbal. My friend, training as a speech pathologist, had a bit more success in communicating with her son in simple sign-language. An acquaintance had two autistic sons, one of whom would need care for life. When I knew her, she had the job and her husband stayed home with the kids.

I can only imagine how these stressed mothers would have responded to the joke that "everyone has autism."
I would think that personal examples of autism, of which we can all provide some, were not the intent of this topic.
When topics and web articles are provided on the Natal Astrology board, discussion of them is allowed ... not always in agreement.
Is it so wrong to take the edge off a serious topic with some not ill-meant humour?


The topic I tried to raise in the OP is how the nature of autism itself can make this population especially vulnerable to extremist political communications. The Internet offers interaction without the need for eye contact, and diminishes the social anxiety of personal ecounters. An alt-right site can convey a sense of rectitude through reversion to traditional values, and it offers autistic people templates on how to interact (including for autistic people who like their computers but don't communicate verbally well).

Yet your placed examples were not examples of them, simply of well-known names on the spectrum.

Most members on the A.W. forum, including yourself, use a pseudonym to communicatively interact with another and express their views anonymously. Point 1 in the first post? Does that make those of us who have never admitted to autism spectrum issues be such? I think not.
We just enjoy 'talking astrology' which we cannot do in a general manner elsewhere.

Coming up with astrological signatures is difficult, because autism operates across a spectrum, with different manifestations. But I wondered whether autistic people are vulnerable to on-line extremism, principally because of how they neurologically process information. With a major US election on the horizon, there's something riding on this.

There's probably some Mercury in there somewhere. Oftentimes there is a moon-Uranus, moon-Saturn, or Mercury-Saturn link with mental health. I think Saturn often figures in depression, and Uranus in behavior that strikes others as erratic. We have the expression "mental health" whereas I think "emotional health" is probably more astrologically accurate.

I believe Mercury rules the nervous system generally; whereas Uranus and Aquarius are more associated with its disorders

I agree with most written here, except believing that there is an astrological signature to be found in charts, as well as the highlighted text. All those famous people listed with 'possible' autism have/had a genius in their individualistic nature that was theirs alone. Hardly a disorder???
 
Hey, Frisiangal, thanks for sharing. I stand by everything I write.

I will say that obviously there are difference between neuro-divergent people with a high level of social anxiety and/or barriers to conversing in face-to-face situations, and neuro-normal people who participate on this Forum. Some people with autism are non-verbal in direct contact with other people, and prefer to handle most of their communications via computer. Which is where the OP comes in.


Maybe you would share about interacting with autistic people in your medical astrology work; or how it would be approached using your methods.
 
vulnerable to extremist political communications.
Waybread, just to clarify, are we really talking about political extremists..... who are on the left as well as the right.
Or do you refer to "extremist" to mean "right wing"?

Very interesting and enlightening comments, but I now know as much as before about what astrological aspects might indicate autism.

Or, might the manifestation of "autism" in a person be similar aspects as those of a person with other neurological disorders?
Is there something specific that says "autism" in the chart?
Are there any cases of twins where one is autistic and the other not? Which would neutralise the idea that there is a specific astrological aspect involved?

Thanks for starting the thread, waybread, very interesting.
 
Hi Elena, I don't know if you can access the review article by Elle Reeve I quoted without a subscription, but it's at:

My impression is that the "black pill" sites she discussed trend towards rightwing extremism. But the issues described for autistic viewers would probably apply to extremist leftwing sites, as well.

What struck me was that some of the appeal of these sites to people with certain types of autism should show up in a horoscope, such as liking specific structures that don't show much variability, and offer a lot of repetition .

But -- as I indicated, I'd be surprised to find really strong astrological signatures for autism, as it is a "spectrum" disorder, meaning there is wide variation between people who are extremely intelligent and can figure out how to function in society, to people who cannot verbalize, socialize, or care for themselves without a lot of support. Since autism is defined as a neurological condition, I'd expect to find Mercury strongly involved somehow.

There is a lot of reliable material online about autism. For example:

We have charts posted here of three people with autism who are high-functioning. Your insights (or contribution of additional charts) are welcome.
 
Hey, Frisiangal, thanks for sharing. I stand by everything I write..........................
Of course. Don't we all?

Maybe you would share about interacting with autistic people in your medical astrology work; or how it would be approached using your methods.
I'll try to express myself better in order not to create misunderstanding.

As I understand it, you began this topic in the hope of reading from members who have been diagnosed on the ASD scale if they agree or are familiar with the 'extremism' content expressed in the article based upon it. There hasn't been much response to that, in spite of the topics by members in the A.W. archives that refer to them. The topic has gone off on a tangent via website articles to describing all forms of autism. In none has there been 'any astrological content', which surprises me that the moderators have not intervened.

It was never a personal intent 'to work with' or 'how to approach' ASD individuals. I have never 'interacted with autistic people' other than those on the forum who, over the years, have kindly offered anonymous birth data with a diagnosis on the scale and for which confidentiality was promised.

My personal study is/was from that of whether medical astrology symbolism can define from a natal chart whether the different aspects (no pun intended) of ASD were evident. Such a study would need thousands of charts for 'research' to confirm data. I've probably compared only 100 or so of non-famous people to reach some conclusions that turn up in one, yet not in another version of ASD. I could supply data here on this topic as a game for members to discover which chart shows which ASD aspect, yet that would not be the intent of your original query. Obviously, there will be those who have the same configurations, yet are not diagnosed with ASD. Perhaps their charts would be more interesting as cross reference.

Extremism is a word associated with Uranus. It would be interesting to check the other sites 'within' the article that initiated this topic that provided data of famous people.
How was their Uranus, as ruler Aquarius, situated? Did Saturn, as trad. ruler Aquarius, work with Moon's response to, and inner feelings affected by outer situations. How did the mental function of Mercury act within its environemnt. The Moon-Mercury-Saturn-Uranus signature so often part of the ASD. Finally, how could the function of Mars and/or/with Jupiter be associated within it. What is the additional effect of Neptune and/or Pluto?
Are/were they truly ASD subjects?

A pity the article taken as example on an astrological forum made no mention of any symbolic correspondence.. :unsure:
 
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