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Here are the 6 levels of important mundane charts according to Abu Ma'shar:

- Aries Ingress preceding great conjunction in Aries
-Aries Ingress preceding great conjunction in New Triplicity (The upcoming one in Aquarius is not the first, that occurred in 1980 in Libra)
- Aries Ingress preceding Mars-Saturn conjunction in Cancer
- Aries Ingress preceding a great conjunction
- Three quarterly charts
- Three monthly charts
(Petosiris has already mentioned the last two types of charts in his previous list)

The exposition of these charts can be found in The Book of Religions and Dynasties by Abu Ma'shar.

Abu-Mashar was wrong about everything and not an authority on anything.

Abu-Mashar Ptolemy, Patridge, Lily and a few others did incredible harm and damage to astrology by corrupting and perverting it.

Abu-Mashar relies heavily on Ptolemy who was not an astrologer and never cast even one chart in his entire life. The difference between your dog and Ptolemy is your dog might actually be able to read a chart and Ptolemy can't.

These people who keep insisting Ptolemy was an astrologer are totally clueless. If you read al-Batanni not only does he point out and correct Ptolemy's many errors in astrology he also corrects Ptolemy's many errors in astronomy so not only was Ptolemy not an astrologer he wasn't a very good astronomer, either.

Abu-Mashar's entire scheme fails because he accepts Ptolemy's false claim that astrology fits the Aristotelian view.

Another way Abu-Mashar was incredibly harmful to astrology is his false claim that the 7th place is lawsuits and he also concocted the stupid "open enemies" and started saying that was also the 7th place.

That isn't speculation, conjecture or conspiracy theory. It's irrefutable fact. Abu-Mashar conflated electional/horary with natal and moved lawsuits from the 8th place where they had been for 1,000 years (and where they still are in Jyotish) to the 7th place and he conjured up the "open enemies" nonsense and made it 7th place in spite of the fact that all enemies whether you know them or not are 12th place and had been for 1,000 years (and still are in Jyotish).

If you play Abu-Mashar's game I sure hope you have a good excuse when your friend or client is screaming at you because you didn't warn them they were gonna get sued 'cause you thought 7th place lawsuits.

There's a reason why 8th place is lawsuit. You might wanna look at a chart to find out why.
 
This is all wrong.

Annual Profections
The earliest surviving reference to profections is found in the third book of Astronomica by the Roman poet Manilius.

No such person. That's actually a forgery from the Renaissance period but I'm not surprised people don't know that.

Although Firmicus Maternus (Mathesis, 2.27) states that one should count from the rising sign, he mentions that some astrologers count from the Sun for day births, and from the Moon for night births. This presents additional evidence for counting from other places besides the rising sign based on considerations of predomination.

Maternus was confused and this has nothing to do with profections. No one ever said you can only count from the Ascending Degree.

The Ascending Degree is too generic. It represents your life. Profecting it will not tell you if you're going to be hired/fired, promoted/demoted, gain/lose income or material wealth, get married, have a child, have someone die (other than you), or get involved in a scandal. It will only tell you how the year goes overall for the native. Likewise, the MC Point is too generic. It will only tell you generally overall how the year goes concerning your career, profession, reputation, standing, rank, status, etc.

If you want more specific info about a particular topic, then you have 2 choices:

1) profect the significating star or Lot, meaning profect Jupiter if you want to know about your income/possessions. Profect the significator of your mother if you want to know about her (Venus or Moon or Lot or both). Profect the significators of marriage (Venus, 7th, and Lot) to learn about marriage; or
2) to know specifically about something like income, switch to Porphyry, identify the ruler of the 2nd house using sign, elevation, trigon, bound, phase, configuration, then profect that star.

Claudius Ptolemy in book 4, chapter 10 of the Tetrabiblos also describes annual profections from each of the releasing places he outlines previously in the same chapter.

Nope. Ptolemy was not an astrologer. He was quoting Nechepso, Petrosiris and one or two others but he doesn't have the common decency or honesty to tell you that. We know that because other astrologers quote the same passages and they identify Nechepso, Petrosiris et al as the source.

This is a good read:

Ptolemy was the most important physical scientist of the Roman Empire, and for a millennium and a half his writings on astronomy, astrology, and geography were models for imitation, resources for new work, and targets of criticism. Ptolemy in Perspective traces reactions to Ptolemy from his own times to ours. The nine studies show the complex processes by which an ancient scientist and his work gained and subsequently lost an overreaching reputation and authority.

Ptolemy failed because he relied on Aristotle who was a spectacular failure although a smashing success at causing harm to humanity.

Rhetorius of Egypt in chapter 54 of the Compendium also mentions releasing not only from the Ascendant, but also from the Sun, the Moon, and the Lot of Fortune. A brief passage in CCAG 2.212.30-213.1 mentions Rhetorius in relation to counting from the parents’ lots for that topic.
Nope. Rhetorius was not an astrologer and like Ptolemy he never once cast a chart ever in his life. Rhetorius was quoting other astrologers and had the decency and honesty to tell us he was quoting them. Of course, that assumes Rhetorius actually existed and there's lots of evidence he didn't. It might be a pseudonym.
The summary of Cridodemus (CCAG 8.3.102) mentions briefly that he dealt with the giving over (paradosis) of one planet to another, which sounds similar to the delineations given in Anthology 4.17-24. This does not represent conclusive evidence that Vettius Valens took his delineations for annual profections from Critodemus since the consideration of which planet is imparting to another is also used in the exaltation method of Balbilus, decennials (referred to as the method of dodekatemoria by Valens) and ingresses. Thus the chapters on the effects of the transmissions of the Ascendant, the planets, and the four lots in Valens could be unique to him.

It doesn't require "conclusive evidence." They were Hermetics and Stoics so they all understood the concepts of Form/Matter and Space/Time in the same way.

That's why Ptolemy is a failure because he relied on Aristotle who was neither a Hermetic nor a Stoic and Aristotle's views on Form/Matter and Space/Time have been thoroughly discredited and rejected.

Critodemus emphasizes profections to planets in years which are multiple of 3 for Saturn, 9 for Jupiter, 7 for Mars, 18 for the Sun, 5 for Venus, 8 for Mercury and 13 for the Moon. The rationale behind those numbers is unknown.

The rationale is not unknown to me.

I fully understand it. Suffice to say whoever you are quoting is clueless. Yes, it is a multiple of 3 for Saturn in some charts but not every chart. It all depends on where Saturn is located in the chart, so it could be a multiple of 5. Or 9. Or 6.

Another method attributed to Hermes (Valens, 4.29) says that one should count from the Sun for mental matters, from the Moon for physical matters and the mother, and from the Lot of Fortune. These texts indicate that approaches to annual profections in the Hellenistic tradition were quite varied and often few starting points were used depending on the topic. Hermes states that one should use the Sothic year, which was equivalent to the year mentioned in Dorotheus.

No, that is not what it indicates. What it does indicate is the Telephone Game. Different approaches were used for different purposes. Some people didn't understand that and falsely assumed they were advocating a different approach.

Monthly Profections
There is even greater difference of opinion when it comes to monthly profections, perhaps partially because of disagreement on what period of time constitutes one month. Manilius states ...

We don't care since he didn't exist. He's a fiction of some unknown Renaissance astrologer.

Most manuscripts of the Tetrabiblos present 28 day monthly profections,...

Nobody cares what Ptolemy says since he was not an astrologer and because his sole purpose and intent was to show how astrology fits the Aristotelian view and it does not.

Paulus and Hephaistio also describe profecting every month from the sign assigned the year, although they do not specify the length of the month. Since Hephaistio specifies that the daily profections are counted every two and one half days, it seems reasonable to make the assumption that he meant a year consisting of 12 months, each comprising approximately 30 days. This variation became the most prevalent one in the Arabic, Medieval and Renaissance traditions.

Hesphastio mostly quotes Ptolemy (and almost verbatim) so that's 10 reasons to ignore what he says. He also quotes Dorotheus.

What few people understand is these predictive methods are based on a 360-day year. A year is actually 365.24 days.

5.25 days over 30 years amounts to 157.5 days so your predictions will be about 4 months off unless you convert the native's age from calendar time to astrology time.

One variant (Valens, 4.29) has a brief passage attributed to Hermes which says to take the distance from the transiting Sun to the Moon at the nativity, and then count the same distance from the sign assigned the year (profected Ascendant).

Wow. Whoever you're quoting has little understanding of what they're reading.

First, this has nothing to do with profections.

Second, the author you're quoting doesn't understand that this is the method Maternus was talking about that the author you're quoting described earlier.

Third, this is simply a Hermetic method of finding the year ruler using the ASC, Sun, Moon and Fortune.

Fourth, the ignorant author you're quoting ignores the fact that when using this method to find the year ruler you must use the Sun and Moon to identify the month. Again, this has nothing to do with profections.

Finally, as part of this method there is a procedure for finding the day and the hour and these are not profections.

Similar calculation is later attributed to Nechepso by Valens (Anthology, 5.4), although it counts from the Ascendant of the nativity instead of the profected Ascendant. Levente László in private communication affirmed that the translation by Robert Schmidt and Mark Riley on the second part of the passage are mistaken.

No, it is Laszlo who is mistaken. In fact, he is so mistaken he doesn't even understand the concept because it has absolutely nothing to do with profections.

Firmicus Maternus (Mathesis, 2.28) does not even mention monthly profections.

He might have been confused. Or, he may have chosen not to mention profections because he preferred another primary method.

Bibliography

An impressive bibliography for sure. Too bad your source didn't understand anything s/he was reading.
 
One variant (Valens, 4.29) has a brief passage attributed to Hermes which says to take the distance from the transiting Sun to the Moon at the nativity, and then count the same distance from the sign assigned the year (profected Ascendant).

I want to focus on this to correct the misinformation so that nobody is misled.

There are about 18 primary methods of predicting and you need to know them all.

Hold onto your horses! I didn't say you had to learn them all. You just have to understand the basic principles. You need to review and understand the basic concepts because a couple of 2 or 3 are going to jump out at you because they, I don't know, mesh with your style of chart interpretation and so it'll be easy for you learn and master that method.

And, really, you need to know at least 2 primary methods of prediction.

I'm not going to explain the Seuthos method in detail. Just an outline so's you can understand the basic principles.

These are NOT profections.

Year Ruler: Use the ASC, Sun, Moon and Fortune. There's a drill-down method and this is one of the few times the nodes are mentioned. You will not use the nodes but you may be counting from them in order to find the sign and the sign ruler is the year ruler.

Month Ruler: You will use the Sun, Moon and prenatal Moon to identify the sign(s) and sign ruler that are important.

Day Ruler: You will convert the native's age from calendar time to astrology time to find the sign/ruler for the days.

Hour Ruler: You can even find that using a simple algorithm.

Now I'm going to show you the value of this method using profections.

You've done your annual profection using whatever significator. How does the year ruler from your annual profection mesh with the year ruler you've identified using the Seuthos Method?

Now you're doing you're monthly profections. Your monthly profection comes to the sign(s) or the sign ruler you found in the Seuthos Method.

Are you going to want to pay attention to those months? Yeah, probably.

Now you're doing your daily profections. Your daily profection comes to the sign(s) or day ruler you determined from the Seuthos Method.

Are you going to want to pay attention to those days? Yeah, probably.

Now might be a good time to calculate the hour ruler using the method above.

Effectively, I'm comparing the Seuthos Method with profections. I don't know about you but I don't have 1,000 hours a week to spend on astrology and those guys didn't even have computers so yes they used multiple primary methods to narrow their focus down to those years that significantly impacted someone's life and then those months/days within a year when someone might be impacted.
 
Similar calculation is later attributed to Nechepso by Valens (Anthology, 5.4), although it counts from the Ascendant of the nativity instead of the profected Ascendant. Levente László in private communication affirmed that the translation by Robert Schmidt and Mark Riley on the second part of the passage are mistaken.

No, it is Laszlo who is mistaken. In fact, he is so mistaken he doesn't even understand the concept because it has absolutely nothing to do with profections.°°

I want to correct that misinformation. Laszlo and the author being quoted do not understand the context or the purpose.

This is absolutely not a profection method.

In fact, it has nothing to do with natal astrology. This about electional astrology.

It stars out with numerous warnings about undertaking anything while Moon is transiting the north node in your natal chart or any node or square any node and the orb is 6° meaning 3° on either side of the nodes or square them.

Then we come to the next warning which is that Sun transiting Aries, Taurus, Cancer, Leo, Libra, Scorpio, Capricorn and Aquarius when the profected point is in those signs is bad especially at monthly transmissions.

Let's practice astrology. What signs are missing from that list? Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces.

Why? Because they're ruled by Mercury and Jupiter? No, that is not why. It's because those are like-engirding signs.

Know your signs, people, know your signs.

Let's put it all together.

Don't initiate anything when Moon is transiting/square the nodes.

When the profection falls in one of those signs, and Sun is transiting those signs and your significators are handing-off/transmitting in those signs delay initiating anything until Sun moves out of the sign or your monthly profection comes to one of the "safe" signs ruled by Mercury or Jupiter.
 

Please give an example; make an actual prediction, or analyze an event.
This is the Traditional Astrology forum.
Out of all the different boards in this forum
this one is the home for traditional astrologers.

It was created so that traditional astrologers
can discuss traditional astrology with each other,
without having to justify it to non-traditionalists

or be interrupted
by people disagreeing with traditional perspectives
. :)

NOTE FOR BEGINNERS/NON TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGERS
There is no requirement for members to post comment
- it's completely voluntary

no one is paid
We have some experienced members with MULTIPLE DECADES of experience
and those of our members who ARE professionals
have day jobs
& unsurprisingly
ARE NOT OBLIGATED to provide complete professional advice for free




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traditional astrologers
can discuss traditional astrology with each other,
without having to justify it to non-traditionalists
or be interrupted
by people disagreeing with traditional perspectives
.
No one is disagreeing with anyone or trying to make anyone justify anything. I just wanted the poster to demonstrate what he was talking about, like many others who post here do.
There is no issue with people discussing Traditional sources but it's somewhat academic and uninformative without seeing it applied.
 
No one is disagreeing with anyone or trying to make anyone justify anything. I just wanted the poster to demonstrate what he was talking about, like many others who post here do. There is no issue with people discussing Traditional sources but it's somewhat academic and uninformative without seeing it applied.

The member has just been banned by a moderator in any event :)

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or be interrupted
by people disagreeing with traditional perspectives
...which the banned member did, interrupting Modern discussions with Traditional perspectives on numerous occasions.
Be that as it may, and it really doesn't matter, this writer would still like to see more Traditional techniques demonstrated, rather than arguments over what Ptolemy, or Valens, or Abu Ma'shar did or didn't get right.
 
...which the banned member did, interrupting Modern discussions with Traditional perspectives on numerous occasions.
Siriusly Traditional Astrology board is for Traditional Astrology :)

Be that as it may, and it really doesn't matter,
Indeed :)
even if the member recently banned is now not commenting
- because banned :)
they may log in but are unable to post comment


this writer would still like to see more Traditional techniques demonstrated,
There are already multiple Traditional threads demonstrating traditional techniques on this board
alternatively one may consider enrolling on a traditional astrology training course


rather than arguments over what Ptolemy, or Valens, or Abu Ma'shar did or didn't get right.

some are interested however not all
everyone has an opinion to which they're entitled

.
 
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