Hello all,
I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...
I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!
Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated, being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity. In addition, the antiscion of Saturn falls conjunct Algol and in opposition to the Sun, Saturn's dispositor (and vice versa - the Sun's antiscion falls in opposition to Saturn), and Saturn and the Sun are contra-parallel by declination. They are in orb of a trine, but I tend to discount that as it is out-of-sign. The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus. Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd (I am fairly certain of my birth time, and have spent quite a lot of time rectifying my chart using transits and progressions to house cusps as well as natal planets, although I can certainly see a case for my MC being in Leo rather than Virgo, making Saturn ruler of the Ic as well....)
With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire.......but on the whole, they haven't been. In fact, largely the opposite. For instance, when Saturn transited my descendant and then Moon, far from relationships disintegrating and lots of emotional issues coming up, I went to work on a Kibbutz in Israel for a few months, where I had the most amazing time and made some great friends (the Moon does rule Cancer intercepted in the 9th house, and is disposited by Venus in the 11th - and ruling the 11th). On my return I immediately began a new job which I loved (in the jewellery industry - Venus in Libra ruling Moon in Taurus, Moon conjunct fixed star Rucha, associated with jewellers), and stayed there until the company folded in 2008 - when Saturn transited my Midheaven. I quickly found another post - in local government; very MC in Virgo! - which, whilst not exactly my dream job, was quite well paid and taught me a great deal.
That's pretty much how my Saturn transits have gone. The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed. The only really 'bad' transits have been the squares of Saturn to the AC/DC axis and then Moon, Mercury, Nodes, Sun - although by the time Saturn squared my nodal axis, both times, the trauma was pretty much over.
The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.
The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop. I told a friend that it felt as though for years and years I had been shoving stuff in 'the cupboard under the stairs' to sort out at a later date; and now some idiot had opened the door and everything had fallen out on top of me, and I had two choices...shove it all back in and buy a padlock, or sort out the junk. A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.
But apart from those couple of times, I can honestly say that Saturn's transits have never been a big deal for me. Some have been hard work, a sharp learning curve, but none have been awful. WHY? Why, when Saturn is in such bad shape in my natal chart? Okay, Saturn represents the father in a nocturnal chart, and I can see that Saturn's debilities represent my father quite well.... I can see an argument for rectifying my birth time backwards a few minutes so that Saturn rules the IC too, although the time given fits transits and progressions very well. My father is a Capricorn Sun with (I think) a Leo ascendant, and my mother has a Leo ascendant, so a Saturn-ruled IC and Sun-ruled MC would make sense, as I have noticed that in a lot of families the signs on angles and/or Sun and Moon signs tend to repeat themselves.
Regardless, my question is not about rectification! My question is why, when my natal Saturn is so badly afflicted, has transiting Saturn actually been pretty good to me? My mum has Saturn exalted and in triplicity in Libra conjunct the IC, ruling the 6th, 7th and 8th houses in her chart, and squaring her Sun and Venus conjunction in the 12th, and she has had some truly awful Saturn transits. I suppose it is an example of exalted or domicile planets NOT always operating in a positive or 'good' way, depending upon the houses they rule; exalted Saturn ruling two malefic houses in her chart and squaring planets in a third malefic house I guess exaggerates the bad. She has had rheumatoid arthritis since her teens (Saturn ruling 6th and on IC - RA has a genetic, inherited component), and the progression of the disease (and other events such as the deaths of her parents) can be easily tracked by transits and progressions in her chart.
Okay, sorry for rambling on! Any advice or comments much appreciated. I am still very much a beginner and I am in awe of the knowledge that some of the regulars here display. I know I could have posted this question in the forum for natal rather than Traditional astrology, but (a), I use Traditional methods, and (b), I am looking for a Traditional answer: Saturn should operate very negatively in my life, and yet he doesn't seem to. Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best, but apart from that, Saturn has been more friend than foe to me, and I cannot fathom why.
I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.
I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...
I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!
Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated, being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity. In addition, the antiscion of Saturn falls conjunct Algol and in opposition to the Sun, Saturn's dispositor (and vice versa - the Sun's antiscion falls in opposition to Saturn), and Saturn and the Sun are contra-parallel by declination. They are in orb of a trine, but I tend to discount that as it is out-of-sign. The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus. Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd (I am fairly certain of my birth time, and have spent quite a lot of time rectifying my chart using transits and progressions to house cusps as well as natal planets, although I can certainly see a case for my MC being in Leo rather than Virgo, making Saturn ruler of the Ic as well....)
With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire.......but on the whole, they haven't been. In fact, largely the opposite. For instance, when Saturn transited my descendant and then Moon, far from relationships disintegrating and lots of emotional issues coming up, I went to work on a Kibbutz in Israel for a few months, where I had the most amazing time and made some great friends (the Moon does rule Cancer intercepted in the 9th house, and is disposited by Venus in the 11th - and ruling the 11th). On my return I immediately began a new job which I loved (in the jewellery industry - Venus in Libra ruling Moon in Taurus, Moon conjunct fixed star Rucha, associated with jewellers), and stayed there until the company folded in 2008 - when Saturn transited my Midheaven. I quickly found another post - in local government; very MC in Virgo! - which, whilst not exactly my dream job, was quite well paid and taught me a great deal.
That's pretty much how my Saturn transits have gone. The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed. The only really 'bad' transits have been the squares of Saturn to the AC/DC axis and then Moon, Mercury, Nodes, Sun - although by the time Saturn squared my nodal axis, both times, the trauma was pretty much over.
The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.
The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop. I told a friend that it felt as though for years and years I had been shoving stuff in 'the cupboard under the stairs' to sort out at a later date; and now some idiot had opened the door and everything had fallen out on top of me, and I had two choices...shove it all back in and buy a padlock, or sort out the junk. A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.
But apart from those couple of times, I can honestly say that Saturn's transits have never been a big deal for me. Some have been hard work, a sharp learning curve, but none have been awful. WHY? Why, when Saturn is in such bad shape in my natal chart? Okay, Saturn represents the father in a nocturnal chart, and I can see that Saturn's debilities represent my father quite well.... I can see an argument for rectifying my birth time backwards a few minutes so that Saturn rules the IC too, although the time given fits transits and progressions very well. My father is a Capricorn Sun with (I think) a Leo ascendant, and my mother has a Leo ascendant, so a Saturn-ruled IC and Sun-ruled MC would make sense, as I have noticed that in a lot of families the signs on angles and/or Sun and Moon signs tend to repeat themselves.
Regardless, my question is not about rectification! My question is why, when my natal Saturn is so badly afflicted, has transiting Saturn actually been pretty good to me? My mum has Saturn exalted and in triplicity in Libra conjunct the IC, ruling the 6th, 7th and 8th houses in her chart, and squaring her Sun and Venus conjunction in the 12th, and she has had some truly awful Saturn transits. I suppose it is an example of exalted or domicile planets NOT always operating in a positive or 'good' way, depending upon the houses they rule; exalted Saturn ruling two malefic houses in her chart and squaring planets in a third malefic house I guess exaggerates the bad. She has had rheumatoid arthritis since her teens (Saturn ruling 6th and on IC - RA has a genetic, inherited component), and the progression of the disease (and other events such as the deaths of her parents) can be easily tracked by transits and progressions in her chart.
Okay, sorry for rambling on! Any advice or comments much appreciated. I am still very much a beginner and I am in awe of the knowledge that some of the regulars here display. I know I could have posted this question in the forum for natal rather than Traditional astrology, but (a), I use Traditional methods, and (b), I am looking for a Traditional answer: Saturn should operate very negatively in my life, and yet he doesn't seem to. Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best, but apart from that, Saturn has been more friend than foe to me, and I cannot fathom why.
I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.
!
