Is there such a thing in trad astrology as a 2nd house Narcissists?

[FraterAC]

In the world of Traditional astrology, is there such a thing as psychology?
Does it make any sense to try to find a 20th or 21st Century classification of mental or emotional states in a framework that dates from centuries, if not millennia, earlier?
The whole premise of psychology would have been totally incomprehensible to astrologers of prior eras. Even in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries the concept of an unconscious, containing unresolved conflicts resulting in behavioral and mental and emotional characteristics to large extent beyond conscious control or volition, was misunderstood and rejected by the majority of society.
What was Archimedes' take on quantum theory?

 

[waybread]

Folks, I take JupiterASC's point that this is a traditional board. Some trads do use modern outers (Olivia Barclay's interpretation of Lilly's horary astrology being one,) but probably the majority would stick to the "naked eye" planets. Asteroids would be right out. The problem is that these heavenly bodies don't fit into the tables of essential dignities and debilities.

If you'd like to use modern planets or asteroids, please either make a case for using them in a traditional context; or better yet, start a new thread on an appropriate board, or PM the member with your helpful information.

FraterAC, I think traditional astrology has all kinds of information on "psychology" but they didn't call it that. Are you familiar with Dorian Greenbaum's Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key? This gets into choleric, melancholic, sanguine, and phlegmatic remperaments. The old trads had all kinds of things to say about what today we would call personality, or personal characteristics.

From p. 1 of Vettius Valens Anthologies:

"Saturn makes those born under him petty, /2P/ malignant, care-worn, self-depreciating, solitary, deceitful, secretive in their trickery, strict, downcast, with a hypocritical air, squalid, black-clad, importunate, sad-looking, miserable,. ... Saturn also causes humblings, sluggishness, unemployment, obstacles in business, interminable lawsuits, subversion of business, secrets, imprisonment, chains, griefs, accusations, tears, bereavement, capture, exposures of children. "

There's a lot of personality in that passage! Those born under Jupiter or Venus fare a lot better.

 

[Opal]

Just information about the origin of the word, and the myth of it, and the number for Blister’s information.

Blister has made inquiries in other threads, this one is Blister’s thread.

Not trying to discuss it here, just informing, and leaving the Trad zone.

 

[FraterAC]

There's a lot of personality in that passage!

True. I think there is however a world of cultural context that is being overlooked here. The ancients (or anyone before the modern world) did not have a concept of personality in the way we currently do.
Plus, one needs to translate the popular contemporary concept of "narcissism" into some kind of astrological terms (which means understanding it) before one can determine how the Traditionalists would deal with it.
Possibly something like "How do afflictions in Leo, or afflicted Suns in a horoscope, produce arrogance, selfishness, lack of consideration of others, using people for one's own ends, and insistence of one's own desires above all, at the expense of all other elements of the character?"

 

[conspiracy theorist]

From p. 1 of Vettius Valens Anthologies:

"Saturn makes those born under him petty, /2P/ malignant, care-worn, self-depreciating, solitary, deceitful, secretive in their trickery, strict, downcast, with a hypocritical air, squalid, black-clad, importunate, sad-looking, miserable,. ... Saturn also causes humblings, sluggishness, unemployment, obstacles in business, interminable lawsuits, subversion of business, secrets, imprisonment, chains, griefs, accusations, tears, bereavement, capture, exposures of children. "

Why thanks Valens

 

[JUPITERASC]

Folks, I take JupiterASC's point that this is a traditional board. Some trads do use modern outers (Olivia Barclay's interpretation of Lilly's horary astrology being one,)

That's a modernistic innovation

but probably the majority would stick to the "naked eye" planets.

because
the fact the outers/asteroids carry no visible light
is a major detriment to their inclusion into the classical framework.
Astrology evolved alongside ancient optical theories
&
these theories still permeate astrological discourse to this day.
Planets in aspect are said to "..see.." or "..regard.." one another
& their light
is considered a transmitter of their influence.
e.g.
TRANSLATION OF LIGHT - HORARY

The word "..planet.." originally evolved from
the Greek "..planetes aster.."
aka "..wandering star.."
and referred to
the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Mars & Saturn
whose motion could be detected
against the backdrop of fixed stars
that are stable in their relative distance from one another
but all move together as one large group.

Another issue with modernistic outers is that
they lack much of the tools that the classical planets have.
This isn't just referring to dignities
though that is a large part of it
but they also lack nature, sect, gender, years, winds, orbs, signatures
This significance really cannot be overstated.
Without these associations
the outer planets are essentially blank orbs without instruction or meaning.
Mostly they either
1) don't make sense within their own context
or 2) are already taken by another planet.
- meanings of the planets have been assigned to them
based on mythological interpretations
or perceived mundane events happening
around the time of their discovery.
Mythological meanings are cherry picked
and often nonsensical
In the myth Ouranos is the tyrannical dictator, not the freedom fighter.
The mundane events are definitely cherry picked
as there are many important events happening around the world
at any given time.

Outer planets significations are plucked from the classical planets.
Instability and recklessness can be found in Mercury and Mars.
Illusions and mysticism can be found in the Moon.
Transformation
and general heavy-handedness
are the domains of Mercury and Saturn.

asteroids would be right out. The problem is that these heavenly bodies don't fit into the tables of essential dignities and debilities.

If you'd like to use modern planets or asteroids, please either make a case for using them in a traditional context;

on another board

or better yet,
start a new thread on an appropriate board,

that's our Traditional board rule already
i.e
Members who wish
to explore
a combination of traditional & modern ideas
should feel free to start a new thread
in an appropriate forum for further discussion.

or PM the member with your helpful information.

good idea

.

 

[waybread]

True. I think there is however a world of cultural context that is being overlooked here. The ancients (or anyone before the modern world) did not have a concept of personality in the way we currently do.
Plus, one needs to translate the popular contemporary concept of "narcissism" into some kind of astrological terms (which means understanding it) before one can determine how the Traditionalists would deal with it.
Possibly something like "How do afflictions in Leo, or afflicted Suns in a horoscope, produce arrogance, selfishness, lack of consideration of others, using people for one's own ends, and insistence of one's own desires above all, at the expense of all other elements of the character?"

I think you're right. The old trads had a lot to say about temperament, character, or quality of the soul (psyche.) As Opal points out, the myth of Narcissus was well known. They just would have gone about discussing these topics in ways appropriate to their astrological methods and period of history.

 

[FraterAC]

The old trads had a lot to say about temperament

The explanation of human character in terms of the four elements (which one Trad here had a major problem with, as being Aristotelian) does not admit of the subconscious, or of complexes there influencing or determining behavior. There was no concept of a personality disorder. Narcissus was a myth, not a disorder.
The myth of Narcissus was intended to deal with other issues in the soul's experience altogether (the soul seeing its reflection in Creation and becoming infatuated with it, and thereby forgetting its own divine nature and becoming entangled in mortal experience). Associating Narcissus with the complex we now know as Narcissism is strictly a 20th Century conceptualization.
If asked about Narcissistic personality disorder, the ancients would most likely have responded with something like, "Whoa there, mate, I think you have some fundamental errors in your conception of human experience. Once we get those misconceptions cleared up, then we can talk."

 

[JUPITERASC]

The old trads had a lot to say about temperament,

Talking about temperament in astrology
and how to look at it in your own chart
and the charts of other people



.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I have the north node in 2nd and south node in 8th
My south node in pisces in 8th

The Nodes and their relation to eclipses
- interpretive developments of the nodes over time
and
insight for how to understand their presence in your chart

Why thanks Valens

Indeed

.

 

[Blister]

The Nodes and their relation to eclipses
- interpretive developments of the nodes over time
and
insight for how to understand their presence in your chart




Indeed

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I didn't make my comment as a question. I made it as an explanation that people would ask about. My moon squares both nodes. My moon doesn't gaf about the nodes ecliptics, half the time they are interferring with her shutting the sun down. But she should care. She realizes that when those same nodes that she strikes down are suddenly relieved with a solar force that shuts her down, then it's a shitshow. I find in my intricate research of "why **it happened and when it happened** the moon and node travel is usually a bad trip when they don't like each other in purpose and then have to take a road trip to the sun that might not like any one of them even as a relative's friend.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I didn't make my comment as a question. I made it as an explanation that people would ask about. My moon squares both nodes. My moon doesn't gaf about the nodes ecliptics, half the time they are interferring with her shutting the sun down. But she should care. She realizes that when those same nodes that she strikes down are suddenly relieved with a solar force that shuts her down, then it's a shitshow.

I find in my intricate research of "why **it happened and when it happened** the moon and node travel is usually a bad trip when they don't like each other in purpose and then have to take a road trip to the sun that might not like any one of them even as a relative's friend.

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[Ailithjohnson]

In traditional astrology, the 2nd house is associated with personal resources, values, and self-worth, rather than narcissism. Narcissistic traits are more linked to psychological patterns than astrological houses. However, if someone places excessive importance on material possessions or status for self-validation, that could reflect imbalances related to the 2nd house, especially if other chart factors, like a strong Leo or challenging aspects to Venus, influence it. Astrology provides insights into personality, but doesn't directly diagnose conditions like narcissism.​

 

[astrologerdevanand]

In traditional astrology, the 2nd house is associated with personal resources, values, self-worth, and material possessions. While there isn't a specific astrological term for "2nd house narcissists," the concept could relate to how a person's sense of self-worth (or ego) is tied to their possessions or financial status. If a planet like the Sun (which symbolizes the ego) or a challenging aspect from planets like Mars or Pluto is present, it may indicate tendencies toward materialistic pride or an inflated sense of self related to wealth.

 

[JUPITERASC]

In traditional astrology, the 2nd house is associated with personal resources, values, self-worth, and material possessions. While there isn't a specific astrological term for "2nd house narcissists," the concept could relate to how a person's sense of self-worth (or ego) is tied to their possessions or financial status. If a planet like the Sun (which symbolizes the ego) or a challenging aspect from planets like Mars or Pluto is present, it may indicate tendencies toward materialistic pride or an inflated sense of self related to wealth.

SPECIFICALLY TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY - SUN
Sun completes sidereal cycles with 365.25636 days
and anomalistic cycles with 365.25963 days.
SUN is masculine and diurnal.
SUN controls action, light, kingship, leadership, reputation
authority over the masses, high rank

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[Blister]

Why thanks Valens

one cannot deny those qualities in a Narcissist, for certain.

 

[astropsychicdevanand]

In traditional astrology, there isn't a specific designation for "2nd house narcissists." However, the 2nd house governs personal values, self-worth, possessions, and material security. A person with a strong or challenged 2nd house placement could potentially focus heavily on material success or external validation, traits sometimes associated with narcissism. If there are challenging aspects to planets in the 2nd house, such as difficult aspects from Pluto or Saturn, it could indicate a person who has intense attachment to their possessions or self-image. However, narcissism is a complex psychological trait, and astrology alone doesn't define it.

 

[JUPITERASC]

In traditional astrology, there isn't a specific designation
for "..2nd house narcissists.."

However, the 2nd house governs personal values, self-worth, possessions, and material security. A person with a strong or challenged 2nd house placement could potentially focus heavily on material success or external validation, traits sometimes associated with narcissism. If there are challenging aspects to planets in the 2nd house, such as difficult aspects from or Saturn, it could indicate a person who has intense attachment to their possessions or self-image. However, narcissism is a complex psychological trait, and astrology alone doesn't define it.

TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY Main Rulerships of HOUSE 2 ​

Resources, material comforts
earnings & all issues concerning wealth
or of a financial nature.
The manner of attaining wealth
- note sign on cusp, planetary ruler its condition.
Personal goods, belongings, assets, income, gain,
money lent to others
profit
or
loss when afflicted
support & assistance from others.

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