What Are Sabian Symbols

[piercethevale]

Greetings.
I am adding to this sticky my reply to another forum member who has been a bit insistent on promoting the idea, or belief, that the Sabian Symbols move with the Sidereal Zodiac.
Copied and pasted below it begins as: ...

Let me just state it simply again... The Sabian Symbols don't move with the Signs as they are not associated with the Signs of the Zodiac and they do not move with the sidereal procession of the stars.

Read the first chapter of Dane Rudhyar's book on the Sabian Symbols "An Astrological Mandala The Cycle of Transformation and It's 360 Symbolic Phases". Part One of the book is titled "The Interpretation of Life Cycles As A Closed Series Of Archetypal Phases" and chapter one is titled "Symbols and the Cyclic Character of Human Experience." In that part of the book, you'll find that Dane explains that there are many cycles in nature but every cycle has structural principles.

The 360 Sabian Symbols represent a cyclic process that can be applied to many other cycles for a greater sense of meaning to be found in any particular cycle. The Sabians are not limited to Astrology as astrology is just one of many cycles to be found in the universe. In the aforementioned book according to Rudhyar, the twelve-fold Zodiac "deals essentially with varying modalities of solar energy, as the waves of this energy strike the earth. It deals with life. The series of 360 degrees deals with meaning."
The twelve signs of the Zodiac represent (ibid.) "twelve basic modes of 'energy', or archetypal qualities of being, which essentially colour any functional activity (e.g. a planet) operating in their fields" Said "fields" are spatial. The twelve Houses of an astrological horoscope are oriented to archetypal classifications of types of experiences that are necessary for the spiritual development of a mature individual person. As to the Zodiac and its twelve basic modes of energy along with the twelve basic classifications of experiences the Houses' embody they are active and effective each in a particular twelfth division of space that is bound to that sidereal movement.

The Sabian cycles' structure is found to be a pattern that is derived from the relationship of the day to the year. It is a cycle of time and it begins with the first day of spring and the Sabian Symbols are a reflection of the cycle of seasons (but they are not limited to that one particular cycle. As I already stated they can be found to be represented in [or representative of] any cycle of transformation.)

Those modes of energies of the Zodiac are, by most astrologers estimation, energies that emanate from the stars and I figure that they most likely are seeing as how they are tied to the procession of the sidereal. But the question unanswered is, what is governing the forces that apply the meaning of the Sabian Symbols?*

My theory is that they are governed by the Angelic. There are seventy-two Angels of the Quinaries according to some esoteric and occult sources and my friend, spiritual confidante, and acclaimed clairvoyant, Clarisse Conner, (whom has proven to me the validity of her talent [or "gift"] on so many occasions that I have lost count but have yet to see it fail once) has, in a number of readings I have had with her concerning questions pertaining to the workings of astrology, has indicated that there is an Angel governing every five degrees of the Zodiac, which amounts to 72 in all.

* What I intended to say, but didn't do a very good job of it, is that I have seen enough evidence to agree with those astrologers that believe that the qualitative energies produced by the 12 Signs of the Zodiac are indeed emanating from the stars and that I also have seen enough evidence to agree with the siderealists in that those Signs travel with the "precession of the equinoxes"... i.e. the sidereal precession.
As like Hesiod surely discovered and then demonstrated when He gave his guide, an almanac of agriculture, to the Greeks, you first sense, then identify, and then demonstrate to all that there is a structure and also rhythmic pattern to the structure. That was the other thing Rudhyar mentioned, that I didn't bring up, is that He wrote that besides structure and form, like any language, like any poem, the Sabian Symbols cycle is one of structure and form but also rhythm. He wrote about how the Sabians' cycle is one of a type that is like the cycle of night and day, rather than one to be thought of as that of a yearly orbit.
Night and Day, Yin and Yang, Light and Darkness, etc. I think the better description/explanation is to think of it as like the phases of the Moon. It begins with the New Moon, that very moment that it moves from an exact conjunction with the Sun allowing the first light of consciousness to manifest to the end of the cycle when it goes completely dark for an instant and the Quarter Moons, and the Half Moon, and all the divisions of the Moon that occur in that Lunar Month are where they are because that's where they occur and they do not move with the stars ...or certainly not at their behest. To divide up the lunar cycle in a month into 360 phases each phase will always have the same Sabian Symbol as to what it embodies and is.
The same applies to our yearly orbit about the Sun for the structure and rhythm of the cycle of the Sabian Symbols.

(The following is not a part of the original post. ptv)
Summary.
The procession through the Zodiac pertains to a cycle through space and the Zodiac is a partitioning of that entire area of space. Keep in mind that the Ascendant goes through all twelve signs in a twenty-four hour period but doesn't spend an equal amount of time in any two or more Signs that it passes through.

The Sabians Symbols is a cycle of precise timing (not precise time, but rather "timing") whereas the Zodiac is a cycle of precise space. The Tropical Zodiacs' only relation to the Sabian Symbols is one of orientation, as in 'where to find them'. The Tropical Zodiac and the Sidereal Zodiac perfectly align but once in a Great Yuga, aka the Great Age ...which I, personally, believe to be 26,640 years... but the Sabian Symbols are to be considered always perfectly aligned with the Tropical Zodiac. As that is how it all began with the Tropical, the Sidereal Zodiac, and the Sabian Symbols all perfectly aligned* ...and then the luminaries, the planets, and all the stars got their marching orders from the Creator.

*(and according to some astrophysicists, to which I concur, all the planets and the moons perfectly aligned with one another from the Sun... of which I am quite certain was in the first degree of Aries)

 

[CapAquaPis]

I read the article on which sabian degree symbols are bad or malefic, my Mars is in one ('9 Virgo-associated with death) and Neptune is in another (22' Sag-22' in any sign is "cursed"). My Chiron placement is 10' Taurus, almost to 11' which discusses a woman (red cross nurse) or (sprinkling her flowers).

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/013910.html

 

[piercethevale]

I read the article on which sabian degree symbols are bad or malefic, my Mars is in one ('9 Virgo-associated with death) and Neptune is in another (22' Sag-22' in any sign is "cursed"). My Chiron placement is 10' Taurus, almost to 11' which discusses a woman (red cross nurse) or (sprinkling her flowers).

http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/013910.html

???
(ibid.)

"(VIRGO 9°): AN EXPRESSIONIST PAINTER AT WORK.
KEYNOTE: The urge to express one's individualized sense of value regardless of tradition.
At this stage the individual is seen reacting against cultural standards and stereotyped ways of interpreting his perceptions. This is a statement of uncompromising self-reliance, which may even imply a kind of defiance and a challenge to society. The mind is seeking to discover the character of the basic and true foundation of individual selfhood, the AUM tone (or logos) of individual being. In the process, however, what is expressed is usually the reflection of a deep catharsis with emotionally charged and often tragic overtones.
This fourth stage symbol brings to us the hint of a technique of transformation of the personality. What predominates is a sense of inner conflict and an over-selfconscious attempt at "being oneself." But there is a great difference between being an origin of development pregnant with futurity, and deliberately sought for ORIGINALITY."

Yes, that is downright horrific, isn't it?

God didn't put a thing in the Heavens with the specific intent of being malefic.

 

[piercethevale]

Well, it finally became apparent to me that you possibly are not citing the degrees in the proper nomenclature as for your association of the Sabian Symbol of a Red Cross Nurse with Taurus 10° when it is almost in the 11th deg.
Please read the sticky associate with the subject.

Your Chiron is in the 11th degree and it is in the Sabian Symbol of a woman watering her garden.
(ibid.)
"(TAURUS 11°): A WOMAN WATERING FLOWERS IN HER GARDEN.
KEYNOTE: Development of the powers of the mind on which ego-consciousness is based.
The psycho-mental nature of a human being takes form out of the fulfillment and transcendence of biological functions and drives, much as the bud appears as the sap rises, and bursts forth into bloom. "As the roots, so the flowers" is an old axiom. The consciousness attaches itself to this wondrous efflorescence; it lavishes its attention upon it, its love — alas, usually a possessive kind of love ("This is my garden!"). Thus the ego develops. It may develop in a negative, resentful way if a belated frost destroys the buds.

This is the first stage of the ninth sequence of phases, a sequence that basically refers to the overall situation related to the development of the ego. The Keyword here is CULTIVATION."

Very appropriate in your case as to have Chiron, "The Wounded Healer", following the degree symbolized by a Red Cross Nurse... a universal symbol of a Healer... in a degree representing cultivation...

I would take it to mean that one of the reasons for your present existence is that you are here cultivating an ability to heal... both yourself and others.

In the process of Spiritual Transformation the Sabian Symbols are to be followed in reverse...thus the next symbol is in that case that of the Red Cross Nurse.... perhaps you are destined to be a great healer in this life or the next?

 

[piercethevale]

In as much my reply regarding that 9th degree of Virgo not having any symbolic malfeasance in fact should be addressed to the 10th degree of Virgo instead....?

(ibid.)

"(VIRGO 10°): TWO HEADS LOOKING OUT AND BEYOND THE SHADOWS.
KEYNOTE: The growth of true understanding, born out of the transcendence of duality even while immersed in the world of duality.
The mind operates inevitably in this world of conflicts, oppositions and duality. Yet when the opposites realize that they are complementary aspects of the one Reality which sustains and encompasses all dualistic modes of existence, they are able then to look away from internal conflicts and beyond the shadows these conflicts generate. They may come to realize the One Consciousness-Force, not in Itself (for this is, if not an impossible, at least an inexpressible experience), but as the Creative Unity, the New God, Ishvara, source of a new cycle of manifestation.
This is the last stage of the thirty-second sequence; it leads us to the new sequence, which deals with the characteristic features of the steadily progressing consciousness in the most critical part along its arduous Path toward transformation. In a deep philosophical sense we witness here the mind attempting to jump beyond the very shadow it inevitably casts upon all experiences; i.e. the SELF-TRANSCENDING ACTIVITY OF THE MIND."

You should all easily see that there is nothing malefic about that either.

 

[piercethevale]

I posted a new thread earlier this week that is titled "To Further Understand What The Sabian Symbols Are: An Explanation"

It's a different approach in explanation from anything I've written previously and I tried to use concepts, or imagery, that is oriented towards the "Tech-ies", "Techno-Geeks", or what ever the math and computer science crowd is called nowadays.
Back when I was in grade school and college, we called them the "Slide-ruler Sluts", or "Pocket Protectorites" and the term "GeeK" was in use even back then.
I could have simply copied and pasted what I wrote and added to this thread...as it has become a "sticky", but thought it better to do so in this fashion, instead.
Here's the link to this other explanation. https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133543

 

[Chrysalis]

I've just started looking into these symbols myself. I've found a pdf link with all the Sabian symbol degree meanings.


http://www.jamesburgess.com/uploads/4/0/0/8/4008580/2015.2_sabian_mysteries.pdf

 

[Chrysalis]

1-2 degrees Aquarius is interesting with regards to where Saturn is currently.

First part of it..."Civilization has developed to protect us against the cruelty of nature, yet in the end we all have to take precautions against accidents, and quicken ourselves in the presence of such primitive forces as thunderstorms. The storm image is appropriate on the psychological level too, as society also tries to mitigate emotional pain and inconvenience as much as possible.
Nonetheless, it is more or less certain that we will be thoroughly inconvenienced in our lifetime by the shifting patterns of events in which we are obliged to participate. The appropriate attitude is one of alertness rather than complete temperamental instability. It is idiocy to shout threats at the thunder.
In all the strands of a normal life – career, relationship, spirituality and family – we will likely have to come to terms with the loss of love, of position, of health and of our hopes – often as a result of an unexpected, unwelcome, forceful or stormy event."

 

[piercethevale]

I've just started looking into these symbols myself. I've found a pdf link with all the Sabian symbol degree meanings.


http://www.jamesburgess.com/uploads/4/0/0/8/4008580/2015.2_sabian_mysteries.pdf

I haven't heard of this author before, so this is all new to me.

I read a bit of the text before He gets into his presentation of the symbols and his commentaries on them.

He's not bad, I'll give him that mcuh credit at this point in time... so far... as it will take a good deal more study to come to a full evaluation.

Intersesting, particularly, what I found in the text before the presentation of the symbols was this passage...
[Quote} "This has a major influence upon how we manage to embody the Sabian mystery of any planet. Someone with Sun at Taurus 16 will inevitably be tenacious – but if that Sun has a Pluto square, and if the person had a violent father, then that tenacity could be obsessional and self-defeating, rather than a helpful, spiritual statement of determination. "[Unquote]

Why it is so interesting to me is that my natal Sun is at 16* Taurus 14' 33" and it is square my natal Pluto at 29* Leo 48' 06"... although He is referring to the degree before, as my Sun is in the 17th degree of Taurus, although I had a very loving father, and mother too, for that matter.

Yet, I also have a natal Desc. at 17* Taurus 07' 04", and thus Sun conjunct Desc. by less than a one degree orb of aspect, yet they are of different Sabian Symbols.

What I found lacking for his commentary of the Sabian for the 17th degree of Taurus, is that He didn't given an adequate enough explanation as to what the Sword and the Torch in the symbol are representative of. The Sword, he relates to "the mind", while Rudhyar states it as being representative of "the Ego" and the battle is between the Ego and the Soul, whereas this author prefers to use the term 'Spirit" rather than the "Soul"... and there is a difference. We possess both a Spirit and a Soul, but it is only the Soul that is eternal, that is a spark of God's Eternal Light and that Light is One with the bij, the Logos, the "Word in the Beginning" and it is the Soul that must eventually over come the ego

Here's Dane's presentation of the Sabian Symbol and his commentary, analysis, and summation for the 17th degree of Taurus so that you can compare it to what the author Burgess wrote, From Rudhyar's book on the Sabian Symbols, "An Astrological Mandala, The Cycle of Transformation and its 360 Symbolic Phases"

" A SYMBOLICAL BATTLE BETWEEN "SWORDS" AND "TORCHES."

KEYNOTE: Refusing to depend upon the past, the seeker turns warrior, fighting anew the eternal "Great War".

When Gautama, having sought in vain for the answers to his questions among the teachers of tradition, sat under the Bodhi Tree, he had to fight his own battle in his own way, even though it is an eternal fight. The spiritual light within the greater Soul must struggle against the ego-will that only knows how to use the powers of this material and intellectual world. There is no possibility of escape; it is the energy that arises out of the present moment — the inescapable NOW — that the daring individual has to use in the struggle.

This second stage symbol suggests that salvation is attained through the emergent individual's readiness to face all issues as if there were only two opposed sides. So teaches the Bhagavad-Gita. This is the dharma of this stage of human evolution: a stage of POLARIZATION OF VALUES."

Did you notice in particular what Dane wrote, " The spiritual light within the greater Soul must struggle against the ego-will that only knows how to use the powers of this material and intellectual world." because THAT is the essential gist of this particular symbol...if not the entire 360 of them...as these symbols can be read in either direction as their being of acycle of transformation. The one, from Aries 01* to Pisces 30* is what will trap one in Maya, that which the Buddha, himself, was seeking to escape. The other begins at Virgo 30* and culminates at Libra 01* and it is a cycle of transformation that is a cycle leading to spiritual evolution, the liberation of ones Soul from Maya, this world of materiality, this world of illusion.

If this author of this other book makes no mention of the fact that there are two different means by which to follow these symbols, two different directions from two different starting points, then I will highly recommend that one should only use this other authors book in a supplementary manner. Because if He makes no mention of this at all, then He really hasn't come to understand the Symbols themselves... I'm not saying that He might not give an adequate presentation and commentary, and He may even give a better one than Rudhyar on some of the symbols, but if he hasn't realized the dual nature within the entire set of symbols as a whole, then He has missed the bigger picture altogether, and that's treading on thin ice, imho.

As to what He wrote for the following degree, that of the 18th degree of Taurus, as it is my Desc., and thus it is the "WHERE_TO" or as I sometimes find it to be a bit more appropriate to say, the "WHOM-TO" of my chart axis, [the Asc. represents "WHO" one is in a natal chart and the life that person has been given has the Desc.'s symbolsim as their goal, the M.C. and I.C. give the symbolism for as to "HOW" that is to be accomplished, and "WHY" it must be, and "WHY" it must be done as to the "HOW" as given in that symbolism.

As Dane gave for the Sabian Symbol found for the 18th degree of Taurus [ibid.]

"A WOMAN AIRING AN OLD BAG THROUGH THE OPEN WINDOW OF HER ROOM.

KEYNOTE: The cleansing of the ego-consciousness.

In this third stage of the present sequence the first two stages should be considered background. The traditional teachings concerning man's nature are somehow reconciled with the youthful enthusiasm that sees in every problem of growth an issue between the 'good' and the 'bad'. The symbol suggests that the real enemy is within the mind; it is the ego and its attachment to possessions. The mind is shown in the likeness of a 'bag', now empty and needing to be aired in the sunlight. But the "window" must first be opened and the bag emptied.

The phrase 'cleansing the doors of perception' has become well known of late. But even more to be cleansed is the container of perceptual images — i.e. the ego mind. The Keyword is PURIFICATION."

You see, the "ego" must be cleansed before the Soul can successfully win the battle mentioned in the Sabian Symbol for the 17th degree of Taurus. It's why many yogis on the spiritual path to conquer the illusion of Maya and free themselves from the material realm become Sunyasi...of which in India there are many. [The Hindu ascetics are called as such, the Buddhists that do the same are known as Bhikkhus, and some Christian Monks and Nuns as well] The have no material possessions, some won't even wear clothes, They beg for their meals, and only when hungry.
If you are, or were raised as, a Christian or even if you are maybe only just familiar with Christianity enough, then you probably know of the account of the wealthy man that asked Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth as to how he might then enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and if so, then you very likely know what Yeshu'a's/Jesus' answer was in reply. That is, "Give away all your worldly goods and then follow me."

I hope this has helped you to conclude for yourself as to which of the two authors, here in comparison, is the one you will want to consult first when consulting the Sabian Symbols... and you may find that you will only want to consult exclusively too.

 

[Chrysalis]

I will take both into consideration. I've not thoroughly had the chance to read through the James Burgess book (link) as of yet, but i am eager to get into it.

The Sabian symbol of the degree of Saturn currently being 2 degrees Aquarius, ACCIDENT: AN UNEXPECTED THUNDERSTORM. This speaks of Covid-19 and how society has had to adapt through the aftermath of the thunderstorm and coming to terms with the changes.

That degree is very on point by its explanation.

My Venus star point is at this degree too, and my relationships have always been turbulent and usually end in some sort of crisis. A current relationship has just ended through Saturn transiting this degree.

I don't think im going to look into the Sabian symbol meaning for each and every planet in my chart, im going to stick to important chart points. Like the VSP, Asc/Dsc, MC/IC, Sun/Moon midpoint, etc.

 

[Chrysalis]

Why it is so interesting to me is that my natal Sun is at 16* Taurus 14' 33" and it is square my natal Pluto at 29* Leo 48' 06"... although He is referring to the degree before, as my Sun is in the 17th degree of Taurus, and I had a very loving father and mother too, for that matter.

Yet, I also have a natal Desc. at 17* Taurus 07' 04", and thus Sun conjunct Desc. by less than a one degree orb of aspect, yet the are of different Sabian Symbols.

What I found lacking for his commentary of the Sabian for the 17th degree of Taurus, is that He didn't given an adequate enough explanation as to what the Sword and the Torch in the symbol are representative of. The Sword, he relates to "the mind", while Rudhyar states it as being representative of "the Ego" and the battle is between the Ego and the Soul, whereas this author prefers to use the term 'Spirit" rather than the "Soul"... and there is a difference. We possess both a Spirit and a Soul, but it is only the Soul that is eternal, that is a spark of God's Eternal Light and that Light is One with the bij, the Logos, the "Word in the Beginning" and it is the Soul that must eventually over come the ego

Maybe this is why you cant relate to your 17 degree Taurus symbol.

"On occasion, a person displays the very opposite behaviour to that indicated by the symbol – this shows the
exact quality in its negative form and can be an expressive clue that shows how best that person can develop,
by adopting the very qualities they have so far been refuting. Also, each degree is a part of the batch of
degrees that make up its Expression, there being six Expressions of each sign. Fully to understand a degree, we
may need to read the adjacent ones to place it into the context of its Expression – and indeed then see how
that Expression fits as part of the sign’s full dynamic meaning."

" The opposite degree may also add real insight – Jones invited us to study both Taurus 16 and Scorpio 16 if we were born on the 6th May. This can be extended to include other planets – the Sabian image takes on a completely different sense according to which of our planets inhabits it."

 

[piercethevale]

Maybe this is why you cant relate to your 17 degree Taurus symbol.

"On occasion, a person displays the very opposite behaviour to that indicated by the symbol – this shows the
exact quality in its negative form and can be an expressive clue that shows how best that person can develop,
by adopting the very qualities they have so far been refuting. Also, each degree is a part of the batch of
degrees that make up its Expression, there being six Expressions of each sign. Fully to understand a degree, we
may need to read the adjacent ones to place it into the context of its Expression – and indeed then see how
that Expression fits as part of the sign’s full dynamic meaning."

" The opposite degree may also add real insight – Jones invited us to study both Taurus 16 and Scorpio 16 if we were born on the 6th May. This can be extended to include other planets – the Sabian image takes on a completely different sense according to which of our planets inhabits it."

What? Far from it,, in that I both completely understand the symbol and can relate to it very well. I have been a yogi since 1968. Thee opposite degree is
right next to my Asc., and that is "WHO" I am, or more to the truth, presently, who I was born as. The 17th of Taurus, where my natal Sun is located, is that next step in this cycle of transformation from that of my Desc. and the opposite degree, the 17th of Scopio, is the degree that follows that of my Asc... that is when one follows the cycle of symbols i the direction that leads to spiritual evolution.
Marc Edmond Jones never realized that there are two ways, two opposite directions in which these symbols can be read, can be followed. In fact Jones didn't even recognize them for what they are, if you read the opening chpter to Rudhyar's book you will find that He was studying astrology through a cours given by Jones via the mail in the early 1930's and after some time He saw that they are 360 phases in a cycle of transormation but that He also saw that there were a numbe of them that didn't fit in. I don't know exactly how many but there were a "few". WhenHe learned that Elsie Wheeler was just a half days drive away from where he was residing at the time, Dane drove there, introduced himself, and asked Miss Wheeler if by chance she could remember exactly the descriptions she gave for those particular sdegrees of the Zodiac. She replied that she could do better than that, as Jones had given her all 360 of the cards which were used in the session that He and Elsie had used that day and that Jones had written her exact words on each of the cards that had been marked with the Sign and degree of the Zodiac before the session began.

When Rudhyar saw the cards for the degrees of the symbols that had been under his suspicion, Dane found that he was right. Jones had changed everyone that was under suspicion to something other than Elsie said that she saw. Marc Edmond Jones was "busted".
Jones had a preconceived belief as to what the symbols would imply and changed enough of them to fit his own agenda.

Jones changed them back before he published his own book in 1953. Dane, however, took over 40 years to write his book on the symbols, not because He was by any means slow to comprehend, far from it. As like Lao Tze, whom is reputed to have said that he wished He had two lifetimes so as to live as long as he felt was need to thoroughly understand and produce his treatise on the I Ching, Dane took all the time He had in which to do the same for the Sabian Symbols. As Dane was 78 years old when he finally published his own book. If you doubt that He was qualified to do so, then I suggest that you learn of Danes background history and what He studied, and the teachers He had prior to even getting interested in Astrology. I'll give you just a bit of that now. He studied Carl Jung very much in depth, for one.

The Sabian Symbol for my Desc., as I explained, is about freeing oneself from the material, from possessions, from worldly attachment. As I am one that has achieved a certain level in the practice of yoga, and by a most rare practice and path only achieved without knowing of it beforehand, and not having it as a preconceived goal. [as explained by Swami Sivananda in his book, "Japa Yoga", I am sishya of the bij, OM. The only guru, and satguru, that I have is the bij, "the Word of God". You would probably, and only possibly at that unless you are familiar with yogic Orders and guru disciple relationships, only understand this by reading that book, at least the few paragraphs in that book that explain how one finds themselves to be on this path. I have thought about it for the last, almost, 17 years since I learned of this, as to the set of circumstances that has to occur to end up being such a sishya and to be given such a path, but I have been just that, and on this path since August of 1968] I have been, as my fellow yogi Suryakant says sometimes, "pulled through the 'Cosmic Knothole'", which means I've been stripped bare of all, of everything, or rather I should add that I will be eventually, as I have been pulled through that "Knothole" many times, and I expect to be pulled through it again... as there still remains, some shreds of the veil of Maya, the illusion, the material, some small flickers of desire, some granules of the ego, that still remain.

So, as for making that transition from the "WHO" at the Asc. to the "WHERE-TO" [or "WHOM-YO" if one prefers to think of it in that manner] I've been there and done that... or to be most honest... via that "Cosmic Knothole"... it was done to me.

I'm certainly not trying to brag here, far from it, as I pointed out it wasn't something I set out to achieve as a goal... and I truly sympathize with anyone else that may have, or ever happens to find themselves in the same predicament. ....although, having been on this path as long as I have now, and enduring what all I have had happen to me as a result of it, I understand why it did, what is expected of me, and I prostrate myself before the wisdom of the Divine that gave me this sadhana and destiny. I am a servant of God.

Now, having said all that, it may surprise you to know that the opposite degree here in question, that opposite my Sun, the 17th of Scorpio happens to be my Astrological Part of Destiny [M.C + Sun - Moon]

Here's what Dane wrote about it [ibid.]

SCORPIO 17°: "A WOMAN, FECUNDATED BY HER OWN SPIRIT, IS 'GREAT WITH CHILD'.

KEYNOTE: A total reliance upon the dictates of the God-within.

In contrast to the outgoing smile of the girl in the preceding symbol, here we see the result of a deep and complete concentration reaching to the innermost center of the personality where the Living God acts as a fecundating power. This reveals the potency of the inward way, the surrender of the ego to a transcendent Force which can create through the person vivid manifestations of the Will of God.

This second phase of the forty-sixth five-fold sequence brings to us the realization of normally hidden potentialities in the average human being of our day. Faith in the Divine is shown here being concretely justified. The human person becomes a 'mother of the Living God'. This is THE TRANSPERSONAL WAY of existence. It is the way that leads to creative mutations."


May you find the truths you are seeking. Please know that one of the many names of our Creator, the One God, is known in the Sanskrit/Vedic language as Sat, and Sat means Truth.... and if it helps you, at least I hope so, know that another name for God is Prema, and Prema means Love.

Eternal Light and Love be thine, Devananda, aka piercethevale... [but to my family and close friends, I'm just Dave.]

 

[Chrysalis]

In the link, if you click on [in blue] Dane Rudhyar & Elsie wheeler there are Sabian symbol meanings. I prefer the way these are explained to the other ones.

http://docshare04.docshare.tips/files/23078/230782881.pdf

 

[Chrysalis]

Now, this is interesting. I've always had this feeling that im being protected in some way. Like someone is watching out for me. The crisis and obstacles i've gone through in life, have always never been as bad as they could have been. If i've been in any kind of desperate situation, something has always suddenly come up out of the blue to help me out. I've been in two life-threatening violent situations in my life and on both occasions it was like someone was holding my hand and guiding me through it, telling what to do and what not to do, which led me to become free from both situations unharmed.

I've just been checking out my natal sun Sabian meaning, which is at 2+ degrees Virgo. (VIRGO 3°): TWO GUARDIAN ANGELS.
KEYNOTE: Invisible help and protection in times of crisis.

So maybe this is the reason why.

 

[piercethevale]

.

" The opposite degree may also add real insight – Jones invited us to study both Taurus 16 and Scorpio 16 if we were born on the 6th May. This can be extended to include other planets – the Sabian image takes on a completely different sense according to which of our planets inhabits it."

I will say one more thing here, as it is needed. It's not that the Sabian Symbols "take on a different... sense", and certainly not a "completely different sense"... IT IS THE SENSE, [as in essence] and the planets, the luminaries, the nodes, or what have you, take on a different meaning as to THAT SENSE.

It is THEY that take on a different meaning, as to what those planets are, and in the sense, as to what they mean to you.

 

[piercethevale]

Now, this is interesting. I've always had this feeling that im being protected in some way. Like someone is watching out for me. The crisis and obstacles i've gone through in life, have always never been as bad as they could have been. If i've been in any kind of desperate situation, something has always suddenly come up out of the blue to help me out. I've been in two life-threatening violent situations in my life and on both occasions it was like someone was holding my hand and guiding me through it, telling what to do and what not to do, which led me to become free from both situations unharmed.

I've just been checking out my natal sun Sabian meaning, which is at 2+ degrees Virgo. (VIRGO 3°): TWO GUARDIAN ANGELS.
KEYNOTE: Invisible help and protection in times of crisis.

So maybe this is the reason why.

That's a good sign.
I very much recommend that you derive the Astrological Parts from your natal chart ans see what the Sabian Symbols are for all that you can so do... it's a long and exhausting process...as there are so many of them. But, If you at least derive those of the more essential significance, you can get to a level of understanding as to just how literally they can be in regards to the symbols given.

As I have often pointed out, that given for the Part of Fortune from the natal chart I have submitted for recognition as being that of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth, is in the 19th degree of Pisces, [ibid.] "A MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE"

i do invite you to read my thread "The Birth Chart of Jesus?" in this sub-forum. I very much recommend that you do. In the first post I present a few examples of how the Sabians quite literally are relevant to the man.

If you'd rather, member Phoenix Venus made a video, in which I give a narrative, about that chart. It is on youtube, Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYsX4qsr8zY&list=PLu0W-__kQdNgDFI3VC01xhEq37WHlZwyI

 

[Chrysalis]

That's a good sign.
I very much recommend that you derive the Astrological Parts from your natal chart ans see what the Sabian Symbols are for all that you can so do... it's a long and exhausting process...as there are so many of them. But, If you at least derive those of the more essential significance, you can get to a level of understanding as to just how literally they can be in regards to the symbols given.

That's what I'm trying to do now. I'm more focusing on personal planets first rather than the collective planets. Some of the meanings are slightly confusing to decipher. I am trying to use my intuition when reading them, but some are hard to decode.

For example, my natal moon at 3+ Gemini HOLLY AND MISTLETOE REAWAKEN OLD MEMORIES OF CHRISTMAS.
KEYNOTE: A longing for the pre-intellectual state of consciousness.

What im grasping from this, is something to do with childhood memories that have forced my aspirations to go into my collective consciousness. They need to be brought back to life.

As I have often pointed out, that given for the Part of Fortune from the natal chart I have submitted for recognition as being that of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth, is in the 19th degree of Pisces, [ibid.] "A MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE"

Wow! that's amazing. And this is exactly what you are doing.

i do invite you to read my thread "The Birth Chart of Jesus?" in this sub-forum. I very much recommend that you do. In the first post I present a few examples of how the Sabians quite literally are relevant to the man.

I will, thank you.

If you'd rather, member Phoenix Venus made a video, in which I give a narrative, about that chart. It is on youtube, Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYsX4qsr8zY&list=PLu0W-__kQdNgDFI3VC01xhEq37WHlZwyI

 

[piercethevale]

That's what I'm trying to do now. I'm more focusing on personal planets first rather than the collective planets. Some of the meanings are slightly confusing to decipher. I am trying to use my intuition when reading them, but some are hard to decode.

For example, my natal moon at 3+ Gemini HOLLY AND MISTLETOE REAWAKEN OLD MEMORIES OF CHRISTMAS.
KEYNOTE: A longing for the pre-intellectual state of consciousness.

What im grasping from this, is something to do with childhood memories that have forced my aspirations to go into my collective consciousness. They need to be brought back to life.Wow! that's amazing. And this is exactly what you are doing.I will, thank you.

Quote:
As I have often pointed out, that given for the Part of Fortune from the natal chart I have submitted for recognition as being that of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth, is in the 19th degree of Pisces, [ibid.] "A MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE"
Wow! that's amazing. And this is exactly what you are doing.
Quote:
i do invite you to read my thread "The Birth Chart of Jesus?" in this sub-forum. I very much recommend that you do. In the first post I present a few examples of how the Sabians quite literally are relevant to the man.
I will, thank you.
Quote:
If you'd rather, member Phoenix Venus made a video, in which I give a narrative, about that chart. It is on youtube, Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYsX...1xhEq37WHlZwyI

I'm not quite sure of what your comment meant about the Sabian for the 19th degree of Pisces being the Part of Fortune derived from that natal chart, I am convinced of is that of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth, has to do with me... although I have mentioned in a thread, a post, or two, that allegedly I was there in his time on Earth and supposedly knew Him well... but, it might interest you to know that the 19th degree of Pisces also happens to be the location of my Astrological Part of Inheritance & Legacy.

Which gives us the reason to believe that said Astrological Part isn't about what is in a late relatives Last Will and Testament... it's about ones' spiritual inheritance.

 

[piercethevale]

That's what I'm trying to do now. I'm more focusing on personal planets first rather than the collective planets. Some of the meanings are slightly confusing to decipher. I am trying to use my intuition when reading them, but some are hard to decode.

For example, my natal moon at 3+ Gemini HOLLY AND MISTLETOE REAWAKEN OLD MEMORIES OF CHRISTMAS.
KEYNOTE: A longing for the pre-intellectual state of consciousness.

What im grasping from this, is something to do with childhood memories that have forced my aspirations to go into my collective consciousness. They need to be brought back to life.Wow! that's amazing. And this is exactly what you are doing.I will, thank you.

I truly understand what you are faced with as to how these Sabian Symbols relate as to the planets and luminaries in ones natal chart.

I have found it to be an easier task to understand these symbols as they relate to the chart axis [the "WHO", "WHERE-TO", "HOW", and "WHY" of your present incarnation and as they apply to a great many of the Astrological Parts... not all the PARTS, as for the reasons that some of those Parts presently accepted as being legitimate are quite obviously wrongfully titled and some, even though, they are given a correct title...or at least an adequate one... are of a precept that isn't easily understood to begin with>

That the Part of Fortune derived from that natal chart that I contend is actually that of Yeshu'a/Jesus of Nazareth is in the 19th degree of Pisces and has as its Sabian Symbolism, ''A MASTER INSTRUCTS HIS DISCIPLE" it may well be the prime, the perfect, the penultimate example of just how easily these symbols can be understood in some contexts. ...and in this example, also how they can help us to understand what any particular Astrological Part actually serves in function as to.

As I have often written, the Part of Fortune is a bit misleading by the title it has been given in the English language. I don't even know what the title given for it in Arabic is the same as the word "fortune" or if there is even an equivalent for that word in Arabic., but as it is one of the Astrological Parts so titled as an "Arabic Part", as it is from the Arabs that this knowledge was passed on to Occidental societies, then it is to the Arabic language that this question must be addressed to. [They may have in turn got this knowledge from India and the Vedic sources, or it may have been one of the ancient Persian empires, or another ancient civilization that was of the regions the Arabs had contact with?]. It has nothing to do with a "fortune" that is of wealth based on specie, bank notes, precious metals, or jewels. Such a concept as "money" is not a Divine precept, but is rather a man-made concept. It tells us right in the Bible that God gave to humankind the harvest of the fields, the bounty of the seas, by which to clothe and feed us, the cool waters from which to quench our thirst and the earth for which to lay down upon and rest our weariness when we are tired. No where in the Good Book does it say that one must work a forty hour week so as to earn money to pay for such things... they are our God given legacy. In fact the Hebrews were forbidden to charge rent for any land that they had to loan out to someone else as for being incapable of using it all in any given season... as no one should have more land than they need to begin with... Yet, while they were forbidden to charge rent they were allowed to request a small percentage of the harvest yield in consideration for their act.
Usury is a sin, period. ...and the charging of rent is usury.

So then, what is the Part of Fortune?
Well, as it does appear from the natal chart of topic here, it is then that by which one will achieve the most fortuitous results by which to provide them with the most propitious circumstances by which they could possibly have to fulfill their pre-ordained destiny, their dharma.
...as it was though the legacy left by Yeshu'a's disciples that has assisted Him the most in fulfilling that destiny He was divinely given... corruption of those "gospels" as to being true or not, or to some degree of such, aside. For without any accounting of the fact that He did live here on earth the brief 32 years and 14 days that He did,,, then His entire life spent here would have very likely been forgotten centuries ago and at best presently He would be a myth, if even that?

So then, the particular Astrological and, as it is in this case Arabic, Part in question here is not about a "fortune" in a materialistic sense, or as "google" gives not as for the first of two definitions, i.e. 1. a large amount of money or assets."he eventually inherited a substantial fortune" but rather that of the second definition google has to offer, 2. chance or luck as an external, arbitrary force affecting human affairs."some malicious act of fortune keeps them separate".

The closest thing to being a poteential factor by which one might acquire more wealth is that Astrological, and also know as an Arabic, Part so titled the Part of Increase and Benefits. In ancient times [before "money" was invented] it would meant a bountiful croup, fecund livestock, and possibly even an abundance of sons and daughters, by which, made an agrarian lifestyle one less effort as for "Many hands make light the work", as the old adage goes. Gut nowadays as almost anything of "increase" and, or, "benefit" usually must be purchased then it would very likely also provide that when the aspects are in good stead with that Part.
AsI pointed out in that first post for the thread of mine about this natal chart for Jesus/Yeshu'a that the chart produces the 2nd degree of Gemini for the Part of Increase and Benefits which according to Rudhyar's book on the Sabian Symbols is [ibid.]

"GEMINI 2°: SANTA CLAUS FURTIVELY FILLING STOCKINGS HANGING IN FRONT OF THE FIREPLACE.
KEYNOTE: A rewarded faith in spiritual blessings."

in that the myth of Santa Claus being all about Christmas, and the birth of the "Christ child", it is so perfect a symbol, as given by the clairvoyant that was asked of it, in the particular instance of this natal chart that it makes it perfectly clear as to the story pertaining to when Yeshu'a/Jesus was asked by one of his disciples how they would pay for the ferry across an imposing river when they had no money between them, the disciple was told to simply look under a rock and to an obviously surprised disciple there it was in the exact amount needed.
Was that because Yeshu'a had some kind of "X-Ray" vision, a siddhi of some kind or was it because He had such unwavering faith in the providence of the Divine that He knew it would be there because He was in simple earnest need ?
As Dane Rudhyar wrote as for his analysis and explanation of the Sabian Symbol for the 2nd degree of Gemini it is easily discerned as to which of the two possibilities was the reason [ibid.]

"The popular allegory refers to the spiritual blessings which come to the 'pure in heart', whose consciousness is likened to that of a little child. Polarized by eager expectation and faith in the existence of celestial Powers, the pure consciousness as yet un-solidified by ego and rationalistic arguments experiences the concrete manifestation of what it had imagined. In this symbol, Santa Claus acts 'furtively'. The gifts from an imagined and intensely believed in spiritual world must not be examined closely or at length by the reasoning intellect. The would-be clairvoyant is told not to look straight and intently at what he begins to 'see'; instead he should cast sideways glances at it, since the sharply focused mind would make the apparition vanish.
At this second stage of the thirteenth five-fold sequence we have once more a symbol in contrast to the one for the first stage. In order to discover the wonders of the normally unconscious depths of the collective psyche, the individual has to build the proper kind of vehicle (a glass-bottomed boat); but the reception of new blessings from the spiritual realm above (the superconscious) requires mostly faith and purity of heart, and a common type of understanding (stockings) — thus a state of INNOCENCE."

Hopefully here I've demonstrated how easily the Sabian Symbols can be understood as to how they apply to Astrological Parts, and my thread so titled as "Birth Chart of Jesus?" provides a somewhat as adequate means by which to understand as to how they apply to the chart axis and to other House cusps as well ... but...
AS TO HOW THEY ARE TO BE UNDERSTOOD IN A RELATIVE WAY TO WHERE ONES NATAL PLANETS AND LUMINARIES ARE ISN'T QUITE SO EASILY DETERMINED... at least they haven't been for me. More so as to my own natal chart but rather difficult to see for that natal chart I contend is that of the Nazarene... for what do I, or anyone actually, truly knows about the man, himself?

AS my natal Sun is in the following degree as to my Desc. and is conjunct in fact by less than a one degree orb of aspect, I have found that it lends that subsequent Sabian Symbolism to that of the Desc. in that it becomes a part of that answer as to "WHERE-TO". That my natal Moon is in the exact same degree as that of my nadir, it is one with the answer as to "HOW" in the sense as to a n interpretaion regarding the affairs of the mundane, and the same as to the answer as to "WHY", in that sense as to the affairs of my own spiritual evolution.

Yet I also have a third influence, a planet, involved in yet another of the four points of the chart axis of my natal chart, Pluto at 20* Leo 48' in a less than a four degree orb of aspect to my mid haven, at 24* Leo 17', a conjunction and for which Pluto's Sabian Symbol lends its symbolism to theat of my mid haven, the answer as to "HOW" of the interpretation regarding my spiritual evolution and the answer as to "WHY" of that interpretation regariding all affairs of the mundane.

It was the Sabian Symbol for my natal Pluto that my brother first showed to me to bring me to the awareness that these Sabian Symbols do certainly have "something going" for them as I have written a number of times before [and possibly in this very thread also] of my first attempt at meditation using Japa yoga [the use of mantra] and the unexpected success that I had doing so in achieving a state of samadhi [oneness] with that mantra, and how my family knew of this. An achievement that many yogis never do obtain, not even after many years of diligent, sincere, and persistent effort... so unexpected, in fact I knew nothing about "samadhi" or the ways of yogis, and yoga, at the time as I was barely 15 years of age. Thus it was quite unexpected and one might even say quite premature... and as the Sabian Symbol for the 21st degree of Leo, that my natal Pluto is to be found within, the symbol as presented, and explained, by Dane Rudhyar will hopefully provide some additional understanding as to how the Sabians are to be understood in their relation to the planets [ibid.]

"LEO 21°: INTOXICATED CHICKENS DIZZILY FLAP THEIR WINGS TRYING TO FLY.

KEYNOTE: The often-negative and at times ludicrous first experience with spiritual teachings.

In Near Eastern symbolism wine, intoxication, and vineyards always refer to ecstatic experiences and to the contact with mystical or occult schools. 'Chickens' here suggest that we are dealing with human beings who are the standardized products of their culture, and more or less undifferentiated specimens of a social norm. Brought accidentally or prematurely to mystical or occult experiences, they usually react to them in a highly confused and 'dizzy' manner. What reacts in them is the ego, and the ego can never 'fly' (i.e. experience spiritually transcendental realities in an effectual manner).

This first symbol of the twenty-ninth five-fold sequence presents to us a picture of the unsatisfactory way many people today — especially young people — approach what purports to be spiritual reality. The 'food' may be intoxicating, consciousness-expanding, but the inner openings lack depth and constructiveness, whether or not they produce what appears to be wonderful feelings. One may speak here of the danger of PREMATURE EXPANSION OF CONSCIOUSNESS."

As Pluto is the planet [oh, it certainly is a PLANET, and a most potent one at that.] of "Death and, or, Transformation" that experience of mine, in trying to meditate for the very first time, was one of profound transformation upon me. ...and it contributed greatly to the annihilation of my ego and my emotional being, as well as that of my personality. I have come to see my own natal chart axis as like a crucifix, where the Sun and Moon, conj. the Desc. and nadir, along with the Asc. which provides ones personality all being nailed to that cross and Pluto at the top, assuring that Death and Transformation that has been said to have occurred on such a similar kind of cross some 2000 years ago. Those three most essential elements of ones physical manifestation, which provide the ego, personality, and emotional being of a person all being crucified, put to death in a sense, so as a "transformation" will take place.
I haven't yet made such a complete process but I've little doubt that before my time is up here it will have at least made a great deal more progress to that end, if it hasn't been successfully completed by that time.
As I have been given to understand that my present life is one given by some sort of mutual agreement in service to a greater cause and that it was not to be made known to myself until I was well past 50 years of age, having been born a white [by appearance, by DNA analysis I am of at least four of the five races, i.e. White, Yellow, Red, and Black, and possibly also of the Brown race but that is only for lack of a database by which to determine that at this time, so I was told.] in the 1950's and grew up in Southern California during the 1950's and 1960's. and having been subjected to all that transpired in California during those years ...and for most all of my life actually... such a transformation isn't so easily accomplished as for the liberties I was allowed to have during those first fifty years of my life. "Old habits die hard", as the saying goes.

Yet, look at my efforts to get this understanding across to the world, my political beliefs and causes I have supported, my cries out for societies to change their ways, for the politics to become a thing of the past and then consider that my natal Mars is in the 5th degree of Gemini and that it's Sabian Symbol is thus [ibid.]

"GEMINI 5°: A REVOLUTIONARY MAGAZINE ASKING FOR ACTION.

KEYNOTE: The explosive tendency of repressed feelings and root emotions.

Every movement overstressing one direction calls forth in time an equally extreme movement in the opposite direction. This is particularly true at the level of the dualistic mind symbolized in the zodiac by Gemini. What is rigidly bound in form and convention tends to explode into formlessness. It may do so violently if socially oppressed — through revolution — or at the psychological level in psychosis; or it may withdraw inwardly into the mystical state in which one identifies with an unformulatable Reality.

This fifth stage is related to the first, for it is the experience of a world of being so far unperceived by the everyday consciousness which starts the process. In the same sense a psychedelic experience may momentarily make the mind transparent to a non-ego-structured realm of consciousness, and may lead to a sustained attempt at understanding what has been revealed of a transcendent Reality. Whether the revolutionary action is violent or peaceful, bitterly resentful or loving, the one desire is TO REACH BEYOND ESTABLISHED FORMS.

...and what Dane wrote, as to specifically, "...a psychedelic experience may momentarily make the mind transparent to a non-ego-structured realm of consciousness, and may lead to a sustained attempt at understanding what has been revealed of a transcendent Reality. that considering what I've written in this post about my first attempt at meditation, just seems uncannily as if it was written for my own personal understanding...

Or, take take a look at an old post of mine in the "Chat" and "Show Off Board" sub-forums that is titled "Sprite, Faerie, or Deva Photos". Read what I wrote about those experiences and look at the two photos I have displayed of those entities and then consider that my natal Venus is in the 16th degree of Aries [ibid.]

"ARIES 16°: NATURE SPIRITS ARE SEEN AT WORK IN THE LIGHT OF SUNSET.
KEYNOTE: Attunement to the potency of invisible forces, of nature."

...and consider also that hose photos were taken during sunset. As to how it applys to the nature of my natal Venus in those things that Venus is to be regarded as ruling over, I still haven't an answer... but I have to say, as I certainly believe, those encounters of mine were far from just pure coincidence...and as they did first visit me in my apartment, most definitely not coincidental.

But as in regards to the symbolism found for my natal Pluto and that it relates to an event I had at age 15, those of the "nature spirits" at age 54, the Sabian Symbols found for ones planets and luminaries may not be readily understood, nor understood for many, many, years after ones birth.

But I do so recommend getting to know what those Sabian Symbols are for all of them... as for the reason that maybe someday, possibly one day off in the future...
Ya know?

I hope this has been of some help for everyone

 

[CapAquaPis]

17' Scorpio is between 8'50" and 26' to represent pregnancy, procreation and postpartum. 8'50" is the degree of pregnancy and oddly, my Uranus in 25' 30" Scorpio is close to 26' square my sun (90') in 26' Aquarius conjunct 20' moon. Some interpretations said the woman is "with child", but they mention she's a father instead of mother of her child. The sabian symbol of 9' Scorpio is about "a doctor analyzes a patient" and 26' Scorpio "a she-wolf with udders full of milk".