Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

[socrates]

Traditional astrologers say that even when in sect ,Saturn is difficult,
but Dorotheus,in his case studies,seems to believe it is benefic in day chart,just like some jupiter,and he provides examples

Anyway in my case saturn in haiz in 9th with mercury reflects my frustration at having few oportunities to talk in english regularly,as im not the kind of person who easily chats up stranger. Im prone to problems when travelling,like losing documents,cell phones, problems buying tickets and occasionally being robbed. This smacks of mercury out of sect more than trouble caused by saturn.
i love travelling but i prefer travelling alone, and feel better abroad than in my native country. How things go with people depends more on where i go and cultural differences than on my chart. Dutch,Scandinavians are more gentle than germans for instance,but that has nothing to do with my chart
I also have south node there and I abandoned official religion very early. When i lived abroad I struggled a bit due to lack of qualifications,but even more because I wasnt where I wanted to be at the time. In the countries I liked the problem was the language,german and dutch, which I found difficult. But i always relish getting out of here. I had issues in my teens that make me feel on edge in my native country. TI wonder if that shows in my chart

heres a german guy at quora who had similar probems and now lives happily in Sweden,hes a SAG with Leo rising born 1971

Having read a lot of his answers on Quora, (to me) why does it seem like Chris Ebbert dislikes his home country Germany?

Answer (1 of 3): Good observation. I grew up fearing life in Germany in the 1970s and 80s as a teenager and child. I experienced the people around me as rude and callous - an impression that was exacerbated by frequent visits to France, Britain, and Italy, where the tone and the manners of the p...

www.quora.com

 

[JUPITERASC]

The Saturn transits didnt hit hard simply because of the lack of aspects the retrograde Saturn makes to other planets.

also if Saturn is NOT Lord of the Year by Annual Profection

.

 

[socrates]

Hello all,

I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...

I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!

Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated, being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity. In addition, the antiscion of Saturn falls conjunct Algol and in opposition to the Sun, Saturn's dispositor (and vice versa - the Sun's antiscion falls in opposition to Saturn), and Saturn and the Sun are contra-parallel by declination. They are in orb of a trine, but I tend to discount that as it is out-of-sign. The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus. Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd (I am fairly certain of my birth time, and have spent quite a lot of time rectifying my chart using transits and progressions to house cusps as well as natal planets, although I can certainly see a case for my MC being in Leo rather than Virgo, making Saturn ruler of the Ic as well....)

With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire.......but on the whole, they haven't been. In fact, largely the opposite. For instance, when Saturn transited my descendant and then Moon, far from relationships disintegrating and lots of emotional issues coming up, I went to work on a Kibbutz in Israel for a few months, where I had the most amazing time and made some great friends (the Moon does rule Cancer intercepted in the 9th house, and is disposited by Venus in the 11th - and ruling the 11th). On my return I immediately began a new job which I loved (in the jewellery industry - Venus in Libra ruling Moon in Taurus, Moon conjunct fixed star Rucha, associated with jewellers), and stayed there until the company folded in 2008 - when Saturn transited my Midheaven. I quickly found another post - in local government; very MC in Virgo! - which, whilst not exactly my dream job, was quite well paid and taught me a great deal.

That's pretty much how my Saturn transits have gone. The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed. The only really 'bad' transits have been the squares of Saturn to the AC/DC axis and then Moon, Mercury, Nodes, Sun - although by the time Saturn squared my nodal axis, both times, the trauma was pretty much over.

The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.

The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop. I told a friend that it felt as though for years and years I had been shoving stuff in 'the cupboard under the stairs' to sort out at a later date; and now some idiot had opened the door and everything had fallen out on top of me, and I had two choices...shove it all back in and buy a padlock, or sort out the junk. A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.

But apart from those couple of times, I can honestly say that Saturn's transits have never been a big deal for me. Some have been hard work, a sharp learning curve, but none have been awful. WHY? Why, when Saturn is in such bad shape in my natal chart? Okay, Saturn represents the father in a nocturnal chart, and I can see that Saturn's debilities represent my father quite well.... I can see an argument for rectifying my birth time backwards a few minutes so that Saturn rules the IC too, although the time given fits transits and progressions very well. My father is a Capricorn Sun with (I think) a Leo ascendant, and my mother has a Leo ascendant, so a Saturn-ruled IC and Sun-ruled MC would make sense, as I have noticed that in a lot of families the signs on angles and/or Sun and Moon signs tend to repeat themselves.

Regardless, my question is not about rectification! My question is why, when my natal Saturn is so badly afflicted, has transiting Saturn actually been pretty good to me? My mum has Saturn exalted and in triplicity in Libra conjunct the IC, ruling the 6th, 7th and 8th houses in her chart, and squaring her Sun and Venus conjunction in the 12th, and she has had some truly awful Saturn transits. I suppose it is an example of exalted or domicile planets NOT always operating in a positive or 'good' way, depending upon the houses they rule; exalted Saturn ruling two malefic houses in her chart and squaring planets in a third malefic house I guess exaggerates the bad. She has had rheumatoid arthritis since her teens (Saturn ruling 6th and on IC - RA has a genetic, inherited component), and the progression of the disease (and other events such as the deaths of her parents) can be easily tracked by transits and progressions in her chart.

Okay, sorry for rambling on! Any advice or comments much appreciated. I am still very much a beginner and I am in awe of the knowledge that some of the regulars here display. I know I could have posted this question in the forum for natal rather than Traditional astrology, but (a), I use Traditional methods, and (b), I am looking for a Traditional answer: Saturn should operate very negatively in my life, and yet he doesn't seem to. Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best, but apart from that, Saturn has been more friend than foe to me, and I cannot fathom why.

I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.

View attachment 46528

saturn is in 10th house thats why you got the job,but in 9th by quadrant

 

[JUPITERASC]

Hello all,
I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...
I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!

Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated,

being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity. In addition, the antiscion of Saturn falls conjunct Algol and in opposition to the Sun, Saturn's dispositor (and vice versa - the Sun's antiscion falls in opposition to Saturn), and Saturn and the Sun are contra-parallel by declination. They are in orb of a trine, but I tend to discount that as it is out-of-sign. The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus. Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd (I am fairly certain of my birth time, and have spent quite a lot of time rectifying my chart using transits and progressions to house cusps as well as natal planets, although I can certainly see a case for my MC being in Leo rather than Virgo, making Saturn ruler of the Ic as well....)

With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire.......but on the whole, they haven't been. In fact, largely the opposite. For instance, when Saturn transited my descendant and then Moon, far from relationships disintegrating and lots of emotional issues coming up, I went to work on a Kibbutz in Israel for a few months, where I had the most amazing time and made some great friends (the Moon does rule Cancer intercepted in the 9th house, and is disposited by Venus in the 11th - and ruling the 11th). On my return I immediately began a new job which I loved (in the jewellery industry - Venus in Libra ruling Moon in Taurus, Moon conjunct fixed star Rucha, associated with jewellers), and stayed there until the company folded in 2008 - when Saturn transited my Midheaven. I quickly found another post - in local government; very MC in Virgo! - which, whilst not exactly my dream job, was quite well paid and taught me a great deal.

That's pretty much how my Saturn transits have gone. The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed. The only really 'bad' transits have been the squares of Saturn to the AC/DC axis and then Moon, Mercury, Nodes, Sun - although by the time Saturn squared my nodal axis, both times, the trauma was pretty much over.

The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.

The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop. I told a friend that it felt as though for years and years I had been shoving stuff in 'the cupboard under the stairs' to sort out at a later date; and now some idiot had opened the door and everything had fallen out on top of me, and I had two choices...shove it all back in and buy a padlock, or sort out the junk. A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.

But apart from those couple of times, I can honestly say that Saturn's transits have never been a big deal for me. Some have been hard work, a sharp learning curve, but none have been awful. WHY? Why, when Saturn is in such bad shape in my natal chart? Okay, Saturn represents the father in a nocturnal chart, and I can see that Saturn's debilities represent my father quite well.... I can see an argument for rectifying my birth time backwards a few minutes so that Saturn rules the IC too, although the time given fits transits and progressions very well. My father is a Capricorn Sun with (I think) a Leo ascendant, and my mother has a Leo ascendant, so a Saturn-ruled IC and Sun-ruled MC would make sense, as I have noticed that in a lot of families the signs on angles and/or Sun and Moon signs tend to repeat themselves.

Regardless, my question is not about rectification! My question is why, when my natal Saturn is so badly afflicted, has transiting Saturn actually been pretty good to me? My mum has Saturn exalted and in triplicity in Libra conjunct the IC, ruling the 6th, 7th and 8th houses in her chart, and squaring her Sun and Venus conjunction in the 12th, and she has had some truly awful Saturn transits. I suppose it is an example of exalted or domicile planets NOT always operating in a positive or 'good' way, depending upon the houses they rule; exalted Saturn ruling two malefic houses in her chart and squaring planets in a third malefic house I guess exaggerates the bad. She has had rheumatoid arthritis since her teens (Saturn ruling 6th and on IC - RA has a genetic, inherited component), and the progression of the disease (and other events such as the deaths of her parents) can be easily tracked by transits and progressions in her chart.

Okay, sorry for rambling on! Any advice or comments much appreciated. I am still very much a beginner and I am in awe of the knowledge that some of the regulars here display. I know I could have posted this question in the forum for natal rather than Traditional astrology, but (a), I use Traditional methods, and (b), I am looking for a Traditional answer: Saturn should operate very negatively in my life, and yet he doesn't seem to. Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best, but apart from that, Saturn has been more friend than foe to me, and I cannot fathom why.

I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.

View attachment 46528

.

 

[DC80]

Traditional astrologers say that even when in sect ,Saturn is difficult,
but Dorotheus,in his case studies,seems to believe it is benefic in day chart,just like some jupiter,and he provides examples

First, sect is not the only consideration.
Second, you need to look at the sign. Here, Saturn is perfectly at home in his day house Aquarius.
Third, you need to look at the placement. Saturn in the 9th is good, especially for astrologers but also anyone interested in social sciences.
Fourth, you need to consider aspects.....

Anyway in my case saturn in haiz in 9th with mercury reflects my frustration at having few oportunities to talk in english

Yeah, always. Mercury/Saturn produce speech issues ranging from muteness to impediments like lisping or stammering, to difficulty talking unless a benefic intervenes (you have Jupiter) to being uncomfortable speaking, disliking speaking to not liking public speaking etc.

i love travelling but i prefer travelling alone, and feel better abroad than in my native country.

That's ruler of the 1st in the 9th.

Other than the out of sect Venus and Mars I don't really see any issues in your chart.

The south node is not a problem but the north node is. That being said, any operative stars transiting the 9th place are going to cause problems.

 

[socrates]

First, sect is not the only consideration.
Second, you need to look at the sign. Here, Saturn is perfectly at home in his day house Aquarius.
Third, you need to look at the placement. Saturn in the 9th is good, especially for astrologers but also anyone interested in social sciences.
Fourth, you need to consider aspects.....



Yeah, always. Mercury/Saturn produce speech issues ranging from muteness to impediments like lisping or stammering, to difficulty talking unless a benefic intervenes (you have Jupiter) to being uncomfortable speaking, disliking speaking to not liking public speaking etc.



That's ruler of the 1st in the 9th.

Other than the out of sect Venus and Mars I don't really see any issues in your chart.

The south node is not a problem but the north node is. That being said, any operative stars transiting the 9th place are going to cause problems.

its the first time I hear the north node is the problem.Normally its the SN that has bad rap

 

[DC80]

The north node is the worst.

Lest we encounter another [pain for the soul] once we have turned aside, it will be necessary to examine in what kind of image the ascending node chances to be in each nativity, whether tropical or solid or bicorporal, and to what star it belongs; and the power of the image will be broken down.

The sign where the north node is located in your natal chart is ineffective.

Often, then, we will find stars able to provide something by the nativity or by transit in these places and they effect nothing.

The year begins with Sun's return to its exact degree/minute in the natal chart. Cast a solar return for your current residence and synch your profected chart to that. Ruler solar return Asc sign and ruler profected sign are operative stars along with the time ruler and co-ruler so everyone should have at least 2 operative stars and some might have all 7 stars operative if there are stars in the profected place or the solar return Asc.

When the operative stars are transiting the place where the natal north node is located nothing will happen.

But if in any way they should make a phase upon the ascending or descending node, the causes of evil are established, especially if they should also be found to be retrograding or setting.

We don't use orbs because all aspects are by sign but there are occasions when we use degrees such as when determining if a star is under Sun's beams.

For all other occasions the degrees are 7°. So to determine if a star is besieged, say Venus at Libra 12° and Saturn at Virgo 6° and Mars at Cancer 15°.

Saturn hurling his rays is going to cover Libra 6°-13° and Mars hurling his rays is covering Libra 15°-22° so Venus is not besieged but if Mars were at Cancer 10° then Venus would be besieged.

It's 7° on either side of the aneretic point. Say Pisces 9° with Mars opposing at Virgo 5° he's hurling his rays and will kill the native unless a benefic intervenes. Sun in a fire sign in the terms of a benefic would function as a benefic so Sun at Sagittarius 8° would save the native.

Moon is the only star that aspects nodes. Everyone else has to be conjunct and the "orb" is 7°.

"Phase" is the same as station. He's saying if a star in your solar return is stationary on top of your natal north/south node woe is you.

If an operative star goes stationary within 7° either way of the north/south node that's bad and it's worse if the star goes on station turning retrograde.

By "setting" he means the 7th place so if you have north/south node 7th place in your natal chart then operative stars transiting that are bad.

And in relation to the current year, it will be necessary to examine in what sort of place of the nativity the ascending node pertaining to the time makes an ingress;' for similarly, it will break down the power of the image and its ruler. And especially if these same should be found to be time-lords, they will be unable to provide anything until they should be separated from the place.

This is confusing. Is he talking about the solar return chart? The profected chart? Or transiting north node?

He's talking about time rulers so I think we can rule out the transiting north node.

Since he mentions "pertaining to the time" that's his phrase for profections. As you progress the profection if the ruler is ahead of the north node it will move off into the next sign or if it's behind the north node the node will move off into the next sign.

More about the Moon and north node.

Never do anything when transiting north node is conjunct, square or opposition natal Moon or transiting Moon or when transiting Moon is conjunct, square or opposition north node.

All those idiots screaming Mercury retrograde yada yada yada if Mercury isn't an operative star then it isn't Mercury retrograde it's Moon in contact with the north node.

 

[Flowers1]

I have Saturn in Leo also, it might work against your dignity. It also can cause extreme insecurity. I think the lesson for me was to overcome that Saturn energy, come out of my shell and start doing things I were afraid of. But it would be easy to "shine". The Saturn placement might also work against the energy of the house it is in. I find house number placement much more telling as to where the restricting is happening.

If it is in the 9th house of another fire sign, it might be easier. I have it in the 8th, which is a alot of restriction of my self esteem. In the 9th, it might restrict and "bother" learning, travelling and research and that comes with frustration, whether known or not known but after 29 year cycles. in the future you might doubt if you were correct about anything that you learned, so stay open minded (Sagittarius) and do not be frustrated ( in the future) when some new information turnes your life up side down.

Travelling might be good for you, and you probably won't regret it.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I have Saturn in Leo also, it might work against your dignity. It also can cause extreme insecurity.

Generalizations are fun but unreliable
keep in mind TOTALITY OF TESTIMONIES
makes all the difference when Saturn is in Sect
Saturn is in Sect in a DIURNAL aka Day chart
no chart provided re: this person

I think the lesson for me was to overcome that Saturn energy, come out of my shell and start doing things I were afraid of. But it would be easy to "shine". The Saturn placement might also work against the energy of the house it is in. I find house number placement much more telling as to where the restricting is happening. If it is in the 9th house of another fire sign, it might be easier. I have it in the 8th, which is a alot of restriction of my self esteem. In the 9th, it might restrict and "bother" learning, travelling and research and that comes with frustration, whether known or not known but after 29 year cycles. in the future you might doubt if you were correct about anything that you learned, so stay open minded (Sagittarius) and do not be frustrated ( in the future) when some new information turnes your life up side down.

that's modernistic astrological non sequitor

Travelling might be good for you, and you probably won't regret it.

a broad generalisation applicable to all

.

 

[socrates]

Generalizations are fun but unreliable
keep in mind TOTALITY OF TESTIMONIES
makes all the difference when Saturn is in Sect
Saturn is in Sect in a DIURNAL aka Day chart
no chart provided re: this person


that's modernistic astrological non sequitor


a broad generalisation applicable to all

.

Steven Spielberg has saturn in leo in 2nd house

 

[socrates]

The north node is the worst.

Lest we encounter another [pain for the soul] once we have turned aside, it will be necessary to examine in what kind of image the ascending node chances to be in each nativity, whether tropical or solid or bicorporal, and to what star it belongs; and the power of the image will be broken down.

The sign where the north node is located in your natal chart is ineffective.

Often, then, we will find stars able to provide something by the nativity or by transit in these places and they effect nothing.

The year begins with Sun's return to its exact degree/minute in the natal chart. Cast a solar return for your current residence and synch your profected chart to that. Ruler solar return Asc sign and ruler profected sign are operative stars along with the time ruler and co-ruler so everyone should have at least 2 operative stars and some might have all 7 stars operative if there are stars in the profected place or the solar return Asc.

When the operative stars are transiting the place where the natal north node is located nothing will happen.

But if in any way they should make a phase upon the ascending or descending node, the causes of evil are established, especially if they should also be found to be retrograding or setting.

We don't use orbs because all aspects are by sign but there are occasions when we use degrees such as when determining if a star is under Sun's beams.

For all other occasions the degrees are 7°. So to determine if a star is besieged, say Venus at Libra 12° and Saturn at Virgo 6° and Mars at Cancer 15°.

Saturn hurling his rays is going to cover Libra 6°-13° and Mars hurling his rays is covering Libra 15°-22° so Venus is not besieged but if Mars were at Cancer 10° then Venus would be besieged.

It's 7° on either side of the aneretic point. Say Pisces 9° with Mars opposing at Virgo 5° he's hurling his rays and will kill the native unless a benefic intervenes. Sun in a fire sign in the terms of a benefic would function as a benefic so Sun at Sagittarius 8° would save the native.

Moon is the only star that aspects nodes. Everyone else has to be conjunct and the "orb" is 7°.

"Phase" is the same as station. He's saying if a star in your solar return is stationary on top of your natal north/south node woe is you.

If an operative star goes stationary within 7° either way of the north/south node that's bad and it's worse if the star goes on station turning retrograde.

By "setting" he means the 7th place so if you have north/south node 7th place in your natal chart then operative stars transiting that are bad.

And in relation to the current year, it will be necessary to examine in what sort of place of the nativity the ascending node pertaining to the time makes an ingress;' for similarly, it will break down the power of the image and its ruler. And especially if these same should be found to be time-lords, they will be unable to provide anything until they should be separated from the place.

This is confusing. Is he talking about the solar return chart? The profected chart? Or transiting north node?

He's talking about time rulers so I think we can rule out the transiting north node.

Since he mentions "pertaining to the time" that's his phrase for profections. As you progress the profection if the ruler is ahead of the north node it will move off into the next sign or if it's behind the north node the node will move off into the next sign.

More about the Moon and north node.

Never do anything when transiting north node is conjunct, square or opposition natal Moon or transiting Moon or when transiting Moon is conjunct, square or opposition north node.

All those idiots screaming Mercury retrograde yada yada yada if Mercury isn't an operative star then it isn't Mercury retrograde it's Moon in contact with the north node.

Which author are you quoting

 

[JUPITERASC]

.

Sun rules LEO

.

 

[socrates]

.

Sun rules LEO

.

We know that? Why do you mention?

 

[JUPITERASC]

We know that?

We?

Why do you mention?

you mention

Steven Spielberg has saturn in leo in 2nd house

.

 

[socrates]

We?


you mention


.

So? He has sun in 6th house. Not better

 

[JUPITERASC]

So? He has sun in 6th house. Not better

Main Rulerships H6
Illness and disease Sorrow - a house of weakness and affliction.
As a cadent house it represents alien or unhelpful conditions.

.

 

[Ouranos]

When looking at a planet (like Saturn here), to have a deep understanding of the planet we need to investigate the celestial and terrestrial figure.
- Essential dignities and debilities (Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term, Face, Peregrine, Fall and Detriment)
- Accidental dignities and debilities (House (in and ruling), Sunbeams, Speed, In Hayz, In Sect, Occidental or Oriental to the Sun and in the Figure, above or below the Horizon, In Halb, Nature (feminine or masculine), Sign (masculine or feminine), Quadrant.
- Fixed Stars.
- Moon waxing or waning
- the aspects to Saturn especially the Luminaries and ASC and MC. Mutual receptions.
- the aspects to a Lot

A useful link of Morin de Villefranche method of determination from Book XXI here
112 Rules for determination

Astrology Schools Teachers Courses | New York City | Live Web Casting Broadcasting

Robert Corre of the New York City teaches an internet-based classical astrology program based on the system of Morin de Villefranche. Student-Instructor interaction to weekly-issued lessons is via bulletin board.

www.forumonastrology.com

 

[JUPITERASC]

When looking at a planet (like Saturn here), to have a deep understanding of the planet we need to investigate the celestial and terrestrial figure.
- Essential dignities and debilities (Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term, Face, Peregrine, Fall and Detriment)
- Accidental dignities and debilities (House (in and ruling), Sunbeams, Speed, In Hayz, In Sect, Occidental or Oriental to the Sun and in the Figure,

above or below the Horizon,

Sect - Day & Night Charts ​

In Halb, Nature (feminine or masculine), Sign (masculine or feminine), Quadrant.
- Fixed Stars.
- Moon waxing or waning
- the aspects to Saturn especially the Luminaries and ASC and MC. Mutual receptions.
- the aspects to a Lot

A useful link of Morin de Villefranche method of determination from Book XXI here
112 Rules for determination

Astrology Schools Teachers Courses | New York City | Live Web Casting Broadcasting

Robert Corre of the New York City teaches an internet-based classical astrology program based on the system of Morin de Villefranche. Student-Instructor interaction to weekly-issued lessons is via bulletin board.

www.forumonastrology.com

 

[JUPITERASC]

.






.

 

[Panditdevsharma]

Hello all,

I'm new to the forum although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...

I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!

Saturn in my natal chart is very heavily debilitated, being in detriment in Leo, retrograde, and out of sect. Using Ptolemy's terms Saturn IS in his own terms, but using other sets of terms he has no dignity. In addition, the antiscion of Saturn falls conjunct Algol and in opposition to the Sun, Saturn's dispositor (and vice versa - the Sun's antiscion falls in opposition to Saturn), and Saturn and the Sun are contra-parallel by declination. They are in orb of a trine, but I tend to discount that as it is out-of-sign. The only true aspect Saturn forms is a sextile to Venus. Saturn is in my natal 9th house, ruling the 3rd (I am fairly certain of my birth time, and have spent quite a lot of time rectifying my chart using transits and progressions to house cusps as well as natal planets, although I can certainly see a case for my MC being in Leo rather than Virgo, making Saturn ruler of the Ic as well....)

With such a heavily debilitated Saturn, I would have expected Saturn's transits to be pretty dire.......but on the whole, they haven't been. In fact, largely the opposite. For instance, when Saturn transited my descendant and then Moon, far from relationships disintegrating and lots of emotional issues coming up, I went to work on a Kibbutz in Israel for a few months, where I had the most amazing time and made some great friends (the Moon does rule Cancer intercepted in the 9th house, and is disposited by Venus in the 11th - and ruling the 11th). On my return I immediately began a new job which I loved (in the jewellery industry - Venus in Libra ruling Moon in Taurus, Moon conjunct fixed star Rucha, associated with jewellers), and stayed there until the company folded in 2008 - when Saturn transited my Midheaven. I quickly found another post - in local government; very MC in Virgo! - which, whilst not exactly my dream job, was quite well paid and taught me a great deal.

That's pretty much how my Saturn transits have gone. The dreaded Saturn Return passed unnoticed. The only really 'bad' transits have been the squares of Saturn to the AC/DC axis and then Moon, Mercury, Nodes, Sun - although by the time Saturn squared my nodal axis, both times, the trauma was pretty much over.

The first time this Saturn transit hit - from my 3rd natal house - I was in my mid teens. I had been a model, straight-A student, despite a fairly grim home life. I began having panic attacks regularly and sleep terrors, and I was terrified that I was going mad. I was pretty sure that there was some mental illness affecting my father as well as alcoholism (he's probably bi-polar...and Caput Algol is a binary star - conjunct the antiscion of Saturn in my natal chart). I was scared that if I told anyone about the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, and (what I now know to be) panic attacks that I was experiencing, I would be told that I was mentally ill, just like my father. I stopped going to school and almost got expelled, although I pulled myself back together in time to sit my final exams.

The second time Saturn squared my AC/DC etc. from the 9th house, I cried for a year. I was at work and suddenly burst into tears; and could not stop. I told a friend that it felt as though for years and years I had been shoving stuff in 'the cupboard under the stairs' to sort out at a later date; and now some idiot had opened the door and everything had fallen out on top of me, and I had two choices...shove it all back in and buy a padlock, or sort out the junk. A recurring theme seemed to be how I had always tried to do the 'right' thing, was responsible and and worked hard - not just at work, but at Life, and yet constantly seemed to lose out to other people who were...more 'fun'. Less responsible. Less serious. Less workaholic. Your typical 'Saturn in Leo' stuff, really.

But apart from those couple of times, I can honestly say that Saturn's transits have never been a big deal for me. Some have been hard work, a sharp learning curve, but none have been awful. WHY? Why, when Saturn is in such bad shape in my natal chart? Okay, Saturn represents the father in a nocturnal chart, and I can see that Saturn's debilities represent my father quite well.... I can see an argument for rectifying my birth time backwards a few minutes so that Saturn rules the IC too, although the time given fits transits and progressions very well. My father is a Capricorn Sun with (I think) a Leo ascendant, and my mother has a Leo ascendant, so a Saturn-ruled IC and Sun-ruled MC would make sense, as I have noticed that in a lot of families the signs on angles and/or Sun and Moon signs tend to repeat themselves.

Regardless, my question is not about rectification! My question is why, when my natal Saturn is so badly afflicted, has transiting Saturn actually been pretty good to me? My mum has Saturn exalted and in triplicity in Libra conjunct the IC, ruling the 6th, 7th and 8th houses in her chart, and squaring her Sun and Venus conjunction in the 12th, and she has had some truly awful Saturn transits. I suppose it is an example of exalted or domicile planets NOT always operating in a positive or 'good' way, depending upon the houses they rule; exalted Saturn ruling two malefic houses in her chart and squaring planets in a third malefic house I guess exaggerates the bad. She has had rheumatoid arthritis since her teens (Saturn ruling 6th and on IC - RA has a genetic, inherited component), and the progression of the disease (and other events such as the deaths of her parents) can be easily tracked by transits and progressions in her chart.

Okay, sorry for rambling on! Any advice or comments much appreciated. I am still very much a beginner and I am in awe of the knowledge that some of the regulars here display. I know I could have posted this question in the forum for natal rather than Traditional astrology, but (a), I use Traditional methods, and (b), I am looking for a Traditional answer: Saturn should operate very negatively in my life, and yet he doesn't seem to. Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best, but apart from that, Saturn has been more friend than foe to me, and I cannot fathom why.

I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.

View attachment 46528

It's interesting to hear about your experiences with Saturn's transits, despite its challenging placement in your natal chart. Traditional astrology emphasizes the importance of considering the entire chart and not just individual planetary placements. Your ability to positively navigate Saturn's transits may be influenced by other factors such as the overall strength of your chart or the mitigating effects of favorable aspects. This is a reminder that astrology offers a broader perspective, and individual planetary placements don't always dictate the entire narrative of one's life. Keep exploring and observing how the interplay of various factors shapes your unique astrological story.