TRADITIONAL MUNDANE ASTROLOGY CHARTS are TOP of the HIERARCY of HOROSCOPIC ASTROLOGY CHARTS

[athenian200]

1980 was a mutation (I may have said that earlier in the thread, not sure).
Once in a while 40-60 years before the cycle changes, you get a preview of coming attractions, so to speak, as the planets conjunct in the next sign (Libra instead of Virgo that time.
I wouldn't be so sure about another big war, or a nuclear one. Israel. Ukraine - the EU has decided it's ok for their countries to lob missiles into Russia.
Have you noticed that that building - is it the EU Parliament? seems to be based on Breugels' Tower of Babylon?
Could they be more obvious?
Or is it just me seeing it?

Yeah, I guess I just wasn't aware that a mutation wouldn't be the same as the normal Air cycle starting.

I mean, I wouldn't rule out global nuclear war, that's always a possibility now that nukes exist. If that happens, I suppose it would prove the Air cycle is indeed worse than the Earth cycle, but global nuclear war is basically the only thing I can think of that might be worse than two World Wars and a very long Cold War right after it. I guess we will find out.

I was just looking at the past Air cycles, and really the main thing that stood out to me as oddly horrible for medieval times in it, was the Black Death. Though, the Fall of Rome in 476 did happen on a Gemini cycle... though I still have yet to find anything particularly bad happening during a Libra conjunction, but that could just mean Libra is the least bad of the air signs. I mean, Jupiter isn't debilitated in Libra, and exaltation isn't as strong a dignity as domicile traditionally, if I recall correctly? Plus, Libra is ruled by Venus, the lesser benefic. So logically, we might expect that Libra isn't as bad as the other two, right?

I am curious, was there a traditional consensus about the great conjunctions involving the air signs being the worst because Saturn is dignified in them? Or did different authors differ on that one?

 

[FraterAC]

This is scary propaganda disguised as Traditional astrology.
As to the Black Death read Richard Tarnas re epidemics.
As to "mutations," there is nothing in nature that requires certain planetary periods to work out exactly equally in Earth years and round human numbers. The cycle quoted is a human approximation of mean calculations. They do not work out equally in 20, 60, or 800 year increments. The mean is more like 19.859, 59.577 and 794.37. The cycles are not based on Earth years, so do not come out equal.
Here are the last 240 years. Which year is a "mutation?"
1802 or 1821?
1981 or 2000?
Neither the transition from the Fire to Earth triplicities nor Earth to Air worked out neatly. There is no reason to assume they're necessarily going to.

1802​	Virgo
1821​	Aries
1842​	Capricorn
1861​	Virgo
1881​	Taurus
1901​	Capricorn
1921​	Virgo
1941​	Taurus
1961​	Capricorn
1981​	Libra
2000​	Taurus
2020​	Aquarius
2040​	Libra

 

[JUPITERASC]

Once in a while you get a mutation towards the end of the 240 year period. Like in 1980 when the conjunction jumped ahead to Libra instead of Virgo. We switched from the Earth cycle to the Air cycle with the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in 2020. The air cycle overall is pretty inimical to humans as totalitarianism tends to be a big theme, and Saturn is stronger than Jupiter in each conjunction. So... Saturn themes, but you hardly need to be an astrologer to see what's happening.

Yeah, I guess I just wasn't aware that a mutation wouldn't be the same as the normal Air cycle starting.

good catch

info for traditional Mundane Astrology beginners
re: Traditional Astrology GREAT MUTATION CYCLE
Jupiter's alignment with Saturn occurs at intervals of just under 20 years
The aspect is occasionally repeated due to a retrograde
of one or both planets.
Each successive conjunction not counting retrograde repeats
occurs at a mean advance of approximately 243 degrees
relative to its predecessor - although from one alignment to the next
this arc can vary considerably.

Every third conjunction
i.e. once every 60 years
brings the alignment back to its starting place, plus around 9 degrees:
this 60 year cycle is termed
FIRST ORDER RECURRENCE of the conjunction.

Every 40th conjunction - roughly once every 800 years
brings the alignment back to within about 1 degree of its starting place:
this approximate 800 year cycle
is termed SECOND ORDER RECURRENCE
aka GREAT MUTATION CYCLE

I mean, I wouldn't rule out global nuclear war, that's always a possibility now that nukes exist. If that happens, I suppose it would prove the Air cycle is indeed worse than the Earth cycle, but global nuclear war is basically the only thing I can think of that might be worse than two World Wars and a very long Cold War right after it.

1980 was a mutation (I may have said that earlier in the thread, not sure). Once in a while 40-60 years before the cycle changes, you get a preview of coming attractions, so to speak, as the planets conjunct in the next sign (Libra instead of Virgo that time.)

I wouldn't be so sure about another big war, or a nuclear one. Israel. Ukraine - the EU has decided it's ok for their countries to lob missiles into Russia.

Quite

Have you noticed that that building - is it the EU Parliament? seems to be based on Breugels' Tower of Babylon?
Could they be more obvious? Or is it just me seeing it?

interesting - many have noticed - not just you
I'm this thread-starter - referring to the OP
- the following relevant images to our Traditional Astrology discussion
of MUNDANE TRADITIONAL HOROSCOPIC ASTROLOGY
are posted for those who are interested

I guess we will find out.

Indeed

I was just looking at the past Air cycles, and really the main thing that stood out to me as oddly horrible for medieval times in it, was the Black Death. Though, the Fall of Rome in 476 did happen on a Gemini cycle... though I still have yet to find anything particularly bad happening during a Libra conjunction, but that could just mean Libra is the least bad of the air signs. I mean, Jupiter isn't debilitated in Libra, and exaltation isn't as strong a dignity as domicile traditionally, if I recall correctly? Plus, Libra is ruled by Venus, the lesser benefic. So logically, we might expect that Libra isn't as bad as the other two, right?

I am curious, was there a traditional consensus about the great conjunctions involving the air signs being the worst because Saturn is dignified in them? Or did different authors differ on that one?

TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY -"..Saturn is stronger than Jupiter in each AIR CYCLE conjunction.
So
Saturn themes
Because
Saturn prevails and Jupiter gets clobbered during each conjunction.."
i.e.

Saturn rules Aquarius, Jupiter is overpowered.
Saturn is nothing special in Gemini, but Jupiter is detrimented there.
Saturn is exalted in Libra, Jupiter gets clobbered again.

.

 

[athenian200]

Right, so what I'm thinking just based on looking at these cycles in history is this. If it has validity and it works the way I'm thinking, we might see something like the following...

1. Grand Conjunction in Aquarius 2020 - Lots of epidemics, new laws, and rapid technological advancements, possibly constant fear of cyber-attacks on vital infrastructure that's become too dependent on computer systems that aren't well understood by governments or utilities.
2. Grand Conjunction in Libra 2040 - A temporary reprieve where life seems better on the surface, but the economy gets further hollowed out and systems of governance become increasingly globalized as a reaction to previous disasters.
3. Grand Conjunction in Gemini 2060 - The fall of America, the European Union, and possibly the UN as well, all leading to a global "dark age," possibly as a result of global nuclear war.

So if I'm interpreting this correctly, then I would guess that Aquarius will continue to kind of suck in precisely the ways we've come to expect since 2020, Libra will give the illusion of a return to normalcy at first even as it destroys the fundamentals that prosperity is built upon, and Gemini could be the end of the world as we know it. Hopefully it's not that bad, but since it's been so long since we had an air cycle, we don't know what that would look like in the modern world. That alone is a bit scary, just not having any clue what to expect, but knowing bad things did happen historically during such cycles.

Gotta say, I hope this traditional mundane astrology turns out to be wrong, because it seems pretty fatalistic... plus, I have a Libra Moon, Gemini Ascendant, and Aquarius MC, so obviously I wouldn't like the idea of air signs being all bad. But I do have to admit, I do often feel very detached from the process of life, sort of like a living ghost with a keyboard that overanalyzes everything at times.

 

[JUPITERASC]

..

Right, so what I'm thinking just based on looking at these cycles in history is this. If it has validity and it works the way I'm thinking,

IF one's thinking is MUNDANE TRADITIONAL

we might see something like the following... 1. Grand Conjunction in Aquarius 2020 ....rapid technological advancements...

that's not TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY
i.e.
"..The image of the Water-Pourer is masculine, diurnal
Domicile of Saturn
It indicates water and property
Depending on the placement of the houseruler
those born under the influence of Aquarius are burdened
troubled by athletic training
incorrigible, making living by waterside places
betrayers of reputation & truth
accusers
.
.

 

[Cap]

All this presupposes that things will reverse and get worse. Frustratingly slow though it is, we can see that over the very long run, like hundreds of years, things improve, and humanity, with much struggle, evolves for the better. We are not cave men. We are not illiterate peasants. We have access to other world cultures, their philosophies, religions, and material advancements. We are struggling to become one world family.
Say what you will, there IS progress.
There always have been, and always will be, challenges and struggle. There will always be evil and people of bad intent.
Aquarius has its own ideal, its own truth, its own achievement.
The new Age will bring its own evolution and achievement, no doubt beyond what we can now imagine.

Things are actually getting worse, much worse, compared to several thousand years ago.. Technology is not the only way to measure advancement.

We are nowhere near of becoming "one world family". Current globalist agenda in not about establishment of prosperous united world such as described in Star Trek and other optimistic SF. Globalist agenda is about establishment of totalitarian rule of super wealthy elites, who dream about using such "one world government" for their own power and financial gain (so called "stakeholder capitalism" = global fascism) while imposing absolute control on others.

Wealth disparity is larger than ever. Because wealth = power, we have such ridiculously powerful men that surpass kings and Caesars of old in power by thousands and million times.

Corruption is greater than ever. More or less, everyone in the world of politics is corrupt. From minor opposition politicians, through members of parliaments and senators worldwide, to presidents and prime ministers. They are all just merchandise that can be bought for right amount. This problem exists because we have such ridiculously wealthy and powerful elites, in the first place.

Science, medicine, education, religion and pretty much every aspect of human society is corrupt. Everything is business, everything is done for profit or manipulation purposes, everything can be bought. For example, I'm sure that all major governments have working prototypes of Tesla's zero-point energy device (what he called "radiant energy" and it worked when tested on a small scale). So basically limitless free energy for everyone. But it is not profitable for elites to allow use of free energy, not to mention that this is not favorable for power structures who want to control "small" people.

Our food, air and water are poisoned. Sometimes for depopulation purposes, sometimes for profit.

We are slowly but surely destroying nature and all life on the planet.

Instead of betterment of humanity, our main efforts are concentrated on weapons and war. We have much more destructive power as time passes by but much less intelligence to avoid wars. Next world war will probably take out at least half of humanity, directly or indirectly, and it is about to start soon.

 

[Cap]

Interestingly, the earth cycle was a pretty rough ride for we denizens of the planet, too. But Saturn only has triplicity in Taurus. My own eccentric view here so don't blame it on anyone else! I think Jupiter in Taurus isn't totally powerless, because Taurus is ruled by Venus and Venus is exalted in Jupiter's sign of Pisces, and Pisces and Taurus see each other and both planets are benefics. Again, my spun theory, do not blame anyone else!
What also perplexed me is why the Earth and Air cycles go from one to the next when they're the most difficult for us, and Water and Fire also follow each other.
480 years of bad, followed by 480 years being easier on the whole.
But I didn't design the thing, so I can't tell you why.
I wish we'd been born in far less Interesting times!

Hi Oddity,

how much weight would you give to Saturn/Mars cycle, as a lesser wheel, so to say, in the grand scheme of things?

Besides entering air cycle in 2020, we also had 2 Saturn/Mars conjunctions in Aquarius, in 2020 and 2022.

 

[athenian200]

..

IF one's thinking is MUNDANE TRADITIONAL

that's not TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY
i.e.
"..The image of the Water-Pourer is masculine, diurnal
Domicile of Saturn
It indicates water and property
Depending on the placement of the houseruler
those born under the influence of Aquarius are burdened
troubled by athletic training
incorrigible, making living by waterside places
betrayers of reputation & truth
accusers
.
.

Ah, that's good to know. I was assuming that the rulership by Saturn in traditional just meant technology was used for repression rather than revolution, and didn't realize it meant that Aquarius had no association with technology at all.

From what you're saying, it sounds like Aquarius would be a lot more like a more masculine version of Capricorn traditionally? It seems like under Aquarius, the rights of property owners might be protected, but that would be the only positive side.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Ah, that's good to know. I was assuming that the rulership by Saturn in traditional just meant technology was used for repression rather than revolution, and didn't realize it meant that Aquarius had no association with technology at all. From what you're saying, it sounds like Aquarius would be a lot more like a more masculine version of Capricorn traditionally? It seems like under Aquarius, the rights of property owners might be protected, but that would be the only positive side.

keep in mind

Saturn rules Aquarius, Jupiter is overpowered.
Saturn is nothing special in Gemini, but Jupiter is detrimented there.
Saturn is exalted in Libra, Jupiter gets clobbered again.

clearly

Things are actually getting worse, much worse,
compared to several thousand years ago.. Technology is not the only way to measure advancement.

for example:
Did you ever wonder why India had a word for aircraft
long before they were invented in the West?

Well, it turns out that aerial vehicles are not in fact modern invention,
they were used thousands of years ago
when they were known as Vimana.
The technology used in ancient India in those days
was comparable
if not better in some regards
than todays technology.
This is attested to in ancient Sanskrit epics the Rig Veda
the Mahabharata
& the Ramayana.

We are nowhere near of becoming "one world family". Current globalist agenda in not about establishment of prosperous united world such as described in Star Trek and other optimistic SF.

that's very clear

Globalist agenda is about establishment of totalitarian rule of super wealthy elites, who dream about using such "one world government" for their own power and financial gain (so called "stakeholder capitalism" = global fascism) while imposing absolute control on others.

MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN is The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - concealing, avaricious, ignorant, petty, malicious
deceitful, downcast, hypocritical, squalid, importunate, sullen & miserable.
Saturn controls depressions & sluggishness
obstacles in business, interminable lawsuits, subversion of action

Wealth disparity is larger than ever. Because wealth = power, we have such ridiculously powerful men that surpass kings and Caesars of old in power by thousands and million times. Corruption is greater than ever. More or less, everyone in the world of politics is corrupt. From minor opposition politicians, through members of parliaments and senators worldwide, to presidents and prime ministers. They are all just merchandise that can be bought for right amount. This problem exists because we have such ridiculously wealthy and powerful elites, in the first place.

MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - controls tax-collectors

Science, medicine, education, religion and pretty much every aspect of human society is corrupt. Everything is business, everything is done for profit or manipulation purposes, everything can be bought.

For example, I'm sure that all major governments have working prototypes of Tesla's zero-point energy device (what he called "radiant energy" and it worked when tested on a small scale). So basically limitless free energy for everyone. But it is not profitable for elites to allow use of free energy, not to mention that this is not favorable for power structures who want to control "small" people.

MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - controls secrets, restraints, imprisonment, grief
accusations, tears

Our food, air and water are poisoned. Sometimes for depopulation purposes, sometimes for profit. We are slowly but surely destroying nature and all life on the planet.

MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - controls farmers, gardeners, lands
administration of that which belongs to others
workers of property, managers
seafaring & waterside trades
lower respiratory infection
the skeletal system, the lymphatic system and the immune system

Instead of betterment of humanity, our main efforts are concentrated on weapons and war. We have much more destructive power as time passes by but much less intelligence to avoid wars. Next world war will probably take out at least half of humanity, directly or indirectly, and it is about to start soon.

MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - controls the elders
violent action, guardianship, fathership of the children of others
bachelors, widows, childlessness, injuries

.

 

[Oddity]

keep in mind

clearly


that's very clear

MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN is The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - concealing, avaricious, ignorant, petty, malicious
deceitful, downcast, hypocritical, squalid, importunate, sullen & miserable.
Saturn controls depressions & sluggishness
obstacles in business, interminable lawsuits, subversion of action


MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - controls tax-collectors



MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - controls secrets, restraints, imprisonment, grief
accusations, tears


MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - controls farmers, gardeners, lands
administration of that which belongs to others
workers of property, managers
seafaring & waterside trades
lower respiratory infection
the skeletal system, the lymphatic system and the immune system


MUNDANE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SATURN The Greater malefic
masculine, diurnal - controls the elders
violent action, guardianship, fathership of the children of others
bachelors, widows, childlessness, injuries

.

 

[Oddity]

Hi Oddity,

how much weight would you give to Saturn/Mars cycle, as a lesser wheel, so to say, in the grand scheme of things?

Besides entering air cycle in 2020, we also had 2 Saturn/Mars conjunctions in Aquarius, in 2020 and 2022.

It's 1 pm and my brain still isn't online, so forgive me, please. I haven't been sleeping well.
As to Saturn-Mars, hmmm...put match to touch paper and strike.
It can also indicate disease epidemics, albeit usually localised ones. You need Jupiter in the mix to spread it all around.

 

[JUPITERASC]

It's 1 pm and my brain still isn't online, so forgive me, please. I haven't been sleeping well.
As to Saturn-Mars, hmmm...put match to touch paper and strike.
It can also indicate disease epidemics, albeit usually localised ones. You need Jupiter in the mix to spread it all around.

Practising Traditional Astrologer DC80 posted several interesting comments
re:
MUNDANE HOROSCOPIC ASTROLOGY MARS-SATURN ASSEMBLING
encouraging all to read the Declaration
& notice it creates 13 separate totally independent countries
- not a single country. Those 13 separate totally independent colonies
turned-countries finally united after 3 & 1/2 years
of trying to sell the Articles of Confederation
on March 2nd, 1781 at about 9:00 am in Philadelphia.

DC80 says this is the only time we cast an Aries Ingress Chart.
& to cast it for 1781 in Philadelphia
& the rising sign is Sagittarius. Sagittarius represents the US
& then cast the Mars/Saturn conjunction in Sagittarius
which means casting a new chart about every 30 years or so.

This is the current operating chart
View attachment 112390

So no longer cast Aries Ingress Charts.
Now cast a chart for the New Moon
that occurs just before the Spring Equinox
unless there's a star that goes stationary in-between that time
in which case cast a chart for the date/time that star goes stationary
because stationary stars are real powerful, even in natal charts.

We do not use the Sibley Chart
because
it is a matter of historical fact and record
that nothing happened on July 4th
because nothing was supposed to happen
because nothing was planned to happen.
The Declaration was actually signed on 2 August 1776
But that's irrelevant because it's a Declaration chart
and
like a conception chart the only question it will answer
is will the the colonies obtain independence or not.
Once the end is known - like a conception chart - it is an ex-chart.

Sun in superior square to Mars/Saturn.
1) Sun superior square Saturn = hostility from subordinates
2) Sun superior square Mars = stirs up fights
& excites fearful threats of public punishment
destroying good judgment & the power of the mind.

To know when this Sun square Mars/Saturn will be activated
check the rising time of Sagittarius at latitude 39°
- which we take as months
& Sun is angular but not the sign ruler of Sagittarius
so take Sun's mean period of 19 as months
& we get
35 + 19 is 54 months
August 2016 to July 2017 is 12 months
August 2017 to July 2018 is 24 months (running total)
August 2018 to July 2019 is 36 months
August 2019 to July 2020 is 48 months
August 2020 is 49 months
September 2020 is 50 months
October 2020 is 51 months
November 2020 is 52 months
December 2020 is 53 months
January 2021 is 54 months

- was there something that happened in January 2021
related to hostility from subordinates and/or stirs up fights
and excites fearful threats of public punishment
destroying good judgment and the power of the mind?
Aries, Leo, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn & Aquarius
are going to activate that Sun square Mars/Saturn
6 times between 2016 and 2046.&
POTUS in 2029 shall have a serious crisis to resolve

2016-2046 is not a particularly good period for the US or Americans
and it's even worse for POTUSs.
All of them are going to struggle -some more than others.
predictive interpretations of this chart are depressing
because
the 2046 Chart that takes over is worse
with Mars/Saturn in the 7th co-present with an 100% out of sect Moon
& an out of sect retrograde Jupiter opposition Sun/Venus
and Mercury opposition Fortune.
Smells like war/conflict but we'll have to see.

One of the things about mundane astrology
- you have to put your political biases aside,
or you won't read the stars for what they're actually saying.
True of all astrology really.

 

[FraterAC]

Would someone care to delineate this cycle for the Russian Federation?

 

[JUPITERASC]

.

clearly it's because they're not reading all thread responses
that a member repeatedly ignores the following:

OP does not include any "..demonstration.."
Maybe they'll read/not ignore
thread responses are completely voluntary and FREE
in-depth personal tuition is not provided on this site for free
only very basic guidelines
and clearly
any member sufficiently interested to study the subject
is free to do so

clearly
any member is free to commence their own thread
on Read My Chart with any specific delineation request
of particular interest to that member

.

 

[Oddity]

Would someone care to delineate this cycle for the Russian Federation?

I was planning to do that anyway, but it'll have to be next week. But it is important, given that the US/NATO are doing everything they can to start a war with Russia.
Of interest: Russia's eevised nuclear doctrine now states that if they have credible evidence that it is, indeed, NATO, that they will nuke.
Let's hope Putin continues his almost supernatural patience and rationality, but I don’t think the US is going to stop.
Let's hope I'm wrong.

 

[waybread]

Would someone care to delineate this cycle for the Russian Federation?

And maybe explain how Putin's absolutist suppression of freedom of speech in Russia and assassinations of dissidents fits into it.

Re: mundane horary, a problem is that horary astrology goes by the moment of the question itself, not the moment of an event. The answer to a horary question hinges on getting that moment correct. If several astrologers ask the same question at different moments and consequently get different answers, which one is correct?

 

[Oddity]

And maybe explain how Putin's absolutist suppression of freedom of speech in Russia and assassinations of dissidents fits into it.

Re: mundane horary, a problem is that horary astrology goes by the moment of the question itself, not the moment of an event. The answer to a horary question hinges on getting that moment correct. If several astrologers ask the same question at different moments and consequently get different answers, which one is correct?

I think we were talking about ingresses here, Waybread. Of course, I could be very confused.
Perhaps you can explain the US coup in Ukraine in 2014 that started this whole mess with the rampant slaughter of Russian-speaking Ukrainians which led to this whole mess?
Or perhaps, closer to home, Justin's new hate speech bill, that includes prison terms up to and including life? He's just so liberal, isn’t he?

 

[conspiracy theorist]

I smell this thread devolving into political argument very soon. Y'all can't chill for once?

 

[JUPITERASC]

I smell this thread devolving into political argument very soon. Y'all can't chill for once?

And maybe explain how Putin's absolutist suppression of freedom of speech in Russia and assassinations of dissidents fits into it.

I was planning to do that anyway, but it'll have to be next week.

as the OP - saying cheers thank you for offering
to freely provide MUNDANE ASTROLOGICAL
response to the non-traditional astrologer questioner unable to delineate

But it is important, given that the US/NATO are doing everything they can to start a war with Russia. Of interest: Russia's eevised nuclear doctrine now states that if they have credible evidence that it is, indeed, NATO, that they will nuke. Let's hope Putin continues his almost supernatural patience and rationality, but I don’t think the US is going to stop. Let's hope I'm wrong.

Quite

.

 

[waybread]

I think we were talking about ingresses here, Waybread. Of course, I could be very confused.
Perhaps you can explain the US coup in Ukraine in 2014 that started this whole mess with the rampant slaughter of Russian-speaking Ukrainians which led to this whole mess?
Or perhaps, closer to home, Justin's new hate speech bill, that includes prison terms up to and including life? He's just so liberal, isn’t he?

You're right, Oddity. Ingresses.

And how two wrongs make a right.