USA Nov. 2020 Presidential Election, the Democrat Party Contenders

[david starling]

OBVIOUSLY, we have incorporated some Democratic Socialist programs into our Capitalist System. I have no problem with that.

But I do have a problem with going full on Socialist, in the way Bernie is trying to drag us.

What are his full-on Socialist proposals? He's not a member of any Socialist parties, as I understand it. He's more just out-front Capitalist Social Safety-net. He's got the catch phrase, "Left-behinds", for those who are severely disadvantaged economically, and can't afford the basic necessities. Also, for helping college students with the outrageously high cost of higher education.

 

[Dirius]

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It occurs to me, that with the advent soon of Pluto into Aquarius, we will be forced (albeit screaming & kicking for many citizens) into the more ecumenical sharing consciousness of Aquarius, collectively speaking, and moving away (with or without Trump) of the Pluto in Capricorn variety i.e. the capitalist system.

Are you in favour of using the force of the state to subjugate people who don't want to comply?

 

[david starling]

Are you in favour of using the force of the state to subjugate people who don't want to comply?

You mean like seatbelt laws, and mandatory helmets for bikes?

Then, there's those no smoking rules, and no driving while high on drugs or buzzed on alcohol. And, obeying traffic laws, especially observing the speed limit.

 

[Dirius]

You mean like seatbelt laws, and mandatory helmets for bikes?

Then, there's those no smoking rules, and no driving while high on drugs or buzzed on alcohol. And, obeying traffic laws, especially observing the speed limit.

Clearly by my quote, I was referring to cases concerning private property, while all your examples are laws regarding a person putting others at risk in public (ex: driving).

You are in favour of using the state force to subjugate other's private property rights david? Would you send someone to jail for not paying their taxes?

 

[david starling]

Clearly by my quote, I was referring to cases concerning private property, while all your examples are laws regarding a person putting others at risk in public (ex: driving).

You are in favour of using the state force to subjugate other's private property rights david? Would you send someone to jail for not paying their taxes?

How can someone pay taxes when they're in prison?

What about kicking someone out into the street for not being able to pay rent? Or jailing parents for taking food they can't pay for when their children are starving?

It's a cruel world when you're broke. I think necessity trumps greed though. That's what the Social Safety-net is about.

 

[Dirius]

How can someone pay taxes when they're in prison?

What about kicking someone out into the street for not being able to pay rent? Or jailing parents for taking food they can't pay for when their children are starving?

It's a cruel world when you're broke. I think necessity trumps greed though. That's what the Social Safety-net is about.

So you do condone violence against fellow human beings.

 

[david starling]

So you do condone violence against fellow human beings.

So do you. The question is, why is violence necessary?

I'll post the Moody Blues song "Question" on the Playlist thread.

 

[Dirius]

So do you. The question is, why is violence necessary?

I'll post the Moody Blues song "Question" on the Playlist thread.

Not at all, I never said parents should go to jail for stealing food for their children - nor that people should be thrown into the streets if they can't pay rent. I personally believe society can be charitable enough to help those in need, and willingly provide for them through charitable institutions.

You on the other hand, have alleged that you feel you can force someone to comply to your desires using the threat of violence. You've even attempted to justify it.

You are condoning violence against fellow human beings. I am not.

 

[katydid]

What are his full-on Socialist proposals? He's not a member of any Socialist parties, as I understand it. He's more just out-front Capitalist Social Safety-net. He's got the catch phrase, "Left-behinds", for those who are severely disadvantaged economically, and can't afford the basic necessities. Also, for helping college students with the outrageously high cost of higher education.

I don't think he is realistic. It is Pie In the Sky ideas, in my opinion.

I have no problem with helping college students with high cost of education. And I think we should legislate ways to lower those costs and change the way student loans work,

But a lot of that debt is extremely POOR CHOICES made by students, who borrowed a lot of cash, and then got degrees in Art History and got themselves in trouble out of the gate.

Bernies plan is to dissolve ALL student debt.

OK< what about my son and his wife , who worked hard to pay theirs off recently? Do they get anything? Or is it just the irresponsible ones who haven't paid theirs off?

Does Bernie pay off all those who are in debt but those who were responsible, they get nothing but the tax bill for it?

Will my son and his wife be paying off the debts of those who didnt pay, besides paying their own debts?

It doesn't sound very equitable to me.

 

[david starling]

Not at all, I never said parents should go to jail for stealing food for their children - nor that people should be thrown into the streets if they can't pay rent. I personally believe society can be charitable enough to help those in need, and willingly provide for them through charitable institutions.

You on the other hand, have alleged that you feel you can force someone to comply to your desires using the threat of violence. You've even attempted to justify it.

You are condoning violence against fellow human beings. I am not.

Are you against police with guns protecting our private property rights?

 

[Dirius]

I have no problem with helping college students with high cost of education. And I think we should legislate ways to lower those costs and change the way student loans work,

The actual solution is to remove the government altogether from college and let the different institutions compete with each other.

 

[katydid]

How can someone pay taxes when they're in prison?

What about kicking someone out into the street for not being able to pay rent? Or jailing parents for taking food they can't pay for when their children are starving?

It's a cruel world when you're broke. I think necessity trumps greed though. That's what the Social Safety-net is about.

I am all for a social safety net. But Bernies policies are way more than that. It is going to be an entitled way of life. Citizens will expect the government to be their Nanny, and rely upon the government, which is NOT an efficient or effective way to do things.

Look at our Veteran Association Medical system. It is a MESS. It our government run health care system.

Is our ENTIRE COUNTRY going to rely upon something like that?

Calling his plan 'Medicare for All' is very misleading. Medicare which I have and I like, is interspersed with our private Health Care System at this time.

But Bernie wants to tear down our entire system and make it all governmental based system. This a a HUGE country that is very spread out. Our current system is State based. So Bernie is somehow going to transform it all, make it all work seamlessly, across all state lines, and have our federal government in charge????

I cannot imagine a bigger NIGHTMARE than that.

 

[katydid]

The actual solution is to remove the government altogether from college and let the different institutions compete with each other.

Oh, I agree. But Bernies plan is the opposite. It will be a federal based program. Like Public school system but call it college. It will be like an extension of high school.

It will make the free college system just an extension of your high school diploma.

 

[Dirius]

Are you against police with guns protecting our private property rights?

Not at all, but if there is no threat to someone's life, there wouldn't be any need to use the force of the state at all.

The reason you might call the police on someone who commits petty theft (like stealing food), would be to prevent possible violence against others, but I wouldn't send him to jail or deprive him of his liberties for that action.

On the other hand, you have implied that you are happy to arrest and send someone to jail for not paying taxes, despite that action being no threat to someone else's property, life or any sort of right. That is a violent act and brutal punishment to someone who has done no wrong to someone else.

 

[david starling]

Not at all, but if there is no threat to someone's life, there wouldn't be any need to use the force of the state at all.

The reason you might call the police on someone who commits petty theft (like stealing food), would be to prevent possible violence against others, but I wouldn't send him to jail or deprive him of his liberties for that action.

On the other hand, you have implied that you are happy to arrest and send someone to jail for not paying taxes, despite that action being no threat to someone else's property, life or any sort of right. That is a violent act and brutal punishment to someone who has done no wrong to someone else.

How would you prevent the theft of your own property?

 

[Dirius]

How would you prevent the theft of your own property?

Theft of property is a violent act. The person who commits the act is the perpetrator who is bringing violence into the situation. That is the major diference.

And in those situations, there is no way to have the foresight that the individual isn't a threat, and is just doing what he did for desperate reasons. That is why you call the police in those situations - just in case, and because violence has been done to someone.

 

[david starling]

Theft of property is a violent act. The person who commits the act is the perpetrator who is bringing violence into the situation. That is the major diference.

And in those situations, there is no way to have the foresight that the individual isn't a threat, and is just doing what he did for desperate reasons. That is why you call the police in those situations - just in case, and because violence has been done to someone.

Violence against the violent, including the real possibility that the killing of fellow human beings will result?

 

[Dirius]

Violence against the violent, including the real possibility that the killing of fellow human beings will result?

There is a huge diference between the state responding to a violent action perpetrated by an individual against another person, and the state initiating a violent action against an individual who has done nothing to others.

You are the one defending and justifying the latter.

 

[david starling]

There is a huge diference between the state responding to a violent action perpetrated by an individual against another person, and the state initiating a violent action against an individual who has done nothing to others.

You are the one defending and justifying the latter.

Categorizing taxation WITH representation as a violent act is a rather extreme position. I think that's what you're getting at.

 

[Dirius]

Categorizing taxation WITH representation as a violent act is a rather extreme position. I think that's what you're getting at.

If citizens avoid paying taxes: they can be arrested, dragged to prison and deprived from their liberties, have their property taken away from them.

You don't find that to be violent?