In traditional astrology, is it worse for Mars and Saturn to be dignified or debilitated?

[athenian200]

Generally, I know that in modern astrology, it's seen as somewhat negative for any planet to be debilitated and dignity is generally regarded as better for all planets, if it's taken into account at all.

The thing that makes me curious here, is that I have seen at least one traditional astrologer seem to suggest it is better for Saturn and Mars to be debilitated because they have a malefic influence, and thus you don't want them to be in a position where they can operate effectively. So if this is the case, you actually wouldn't want Mars in Capricorn, Aries, or Scorpio because it would be too powerful there, and you wouldn't want Saturn in Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius for a similar reason.

So, is this actually the traditional view? That it's better if malefic planets are debilitated? The reason I ask is because that perspective of wanting malefic planets to be debilitated was rather new to me, and it didn't seem to fit with anything I've heard before.

 

[passiflora]

Who is that astrologer! Do share -- sounds interesting.

There are a slightly different questions of how you read a horoscope and how you interpret the modern world. Presumably, you can be a traditional astrologer without personally having the values of the school you work with most closely. I see that can create certain tensions. There's a very famous contemporary astrologer who claims to be super-feminist and uses that as a hook to land her clients. But her readings are fundamentally traditional in that they don't ask the questions you're asking above -- they fall back on whatever seems to line up most easily with planetary joy - which could easily mean aligning with a patriarchal power structure.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Generally, I know that in modern astrology, it's seen as somewhat negative for any planet to be debilitated and dignity is generally regarded as better for all planets, if it's taken into account at all. The thing that makes me curious here, is that I have seen at least one traditional astrologer seem to suggest it is better for Saturn and Mars to be debilitated because they have a malefic influence, and thus you don't want them to be in a position where they can operate effectively. So if this is the case, you actually wouldn't want Mars in Capricorn, Aries, or Scorpio because it would be too powerful there, and you wouldn't want Saturn in Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius for a similar reason.

Who is that astrologer! Do share -- sounds interesting.

a link to that would be apposite

There are a slightly different questions of how you read a horoscope and how you interpret the modern world. Presumably, you can be a traditional astrologer without personally having the values of the school you work with most closely. I see that can create certain tensions. There's a very famous contemporary astrologer who claims to be super-feminist and uses that as a hook to land her clients. But her readings are fundamentally traditional in that they don't ask the questions you're asking above -- they fall back on whatever seems to line up most easily with planetary joy - which could easily mean aligning with a patriarchal power structure.

 

[waybread]

It depends whom you ask.

I think Bonatti (see attachment) said that malefics in their own "chariots" (signs) lose their malefic natures.

Then Saturn joys in the 12th house and Mars joys in the 6th. The planetary joys still don't make them entirely wonderful, traditionally, but just a bit better placed. The idea being that the "house of the bad spirit" (12th) and house of bad fortune (6th) were rotten anyway, so at least the malefics weren't gumming up some perfectly good house somewhere else.

My impression is that generally if a malefic is doing pretty well in its situation, than it probably won't be as mean-spirited as if it were badly placed.

 

[waybread]

I think a good example of a malefic being well placed in its own sign is the chart of Kamala Harris. I don't know if she will win the presidential election, but anyone who has served as Senator from California and VP of the US has had a successful career.

Kamala Harris, horoscope for birth date 20 October 1964, born in Oakland, with Astrodatabank biography

Horoscope and astrology data of Kamala Harris born on 20 October 1964 Oakland, California, with biography

www.astro.com

Harris's Saturn is domiciled in Aquarius, and is will placed in the 9th house, which rules the law as a body of knowledge. Saturn seems to be her almuten (most essential dignity) and lord of the geniture (essential +accidental dignity.) Saturn makes a close trine to Harris's sun, and strengthens her debilitated sun by reception. Saturn sextiles Harris's moon (partile.)

 

[athenian200]

It depends whom you ask.

I think Bonatti (see attachment) said that malefics in their own "chariots" (signs) lose their malefic natures.

Yeah, this is what I originally had heard, that malefics may not necessarily be good in traditional astrology, but they are at least "less bad" when dignified.

It's why I was so surprised by the notion that malefic planets should be debilitated.

 

[Sunrise]

Generally, I know that in modern astrology, it's seen as somewhat negative for any planet to be debilitated and dignity is generally regarded as better for all planets, if it's taken into account at all.

The thing that makes me curious here, is that I have seen at least one traditional astrologer seem to suggest it is better for Saturn and Mars to be debilitated because they have a malefic influence, and thus you don't want them to be in a position where they can operate effectively. So if this is the case, you actually wouldn't want Mars in Capricorn, Aries, or Scorpio because it would be too powerful there, and you wouldn't want Saturn in Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius for a similar reason.

So, is this actually the traditional view? That it's better if malefic planets are debilitated? The reason I ask is because that perspective of wanting malefic planets to be debilitated was rather new to me, and it didn't seem to fit with anything I've heard before.

My dear, things are not that simple. From my experience and on a personal level as well, it's one thing to have a strong Saturn and Mars and another to be weak or down or generally in positions of weakness.. it makes a very big difference and it's the substance and detail that make the difference in a map.
based on traditional astrology you have to look at a lot of things to see exactly what you are becoming in the planets.
E.g. Exaltation which you consider good but may show exaggerations and in fact the fundamental powers are very useful in other matters as well.

a simple example: it is another square Mars in Aries with Saturn in Capricorn (both in a strong position) very good positions and a square that will take the person very high of course with all the difficulties this aspect has....
it is another Mars square Saturn in Taurus (mars) and Leo (Saturn) both in decline and weakness.....
a trine for example of Venus in Scorpio with Mars in Cancer (both in a position of weakness and fall) This is not considered a good triangle etc. etc. etc.
it is different the trine with Mars in Leo and Saturn in Aries each in the weakness and fall of the other
all these and more make a big difference

 

[Sunrise]

also an important role for Mars and Saturn is to look at whether the chart is day or night. From my experience, this plays an important role.
and of course from there you can see if it decreases their malefic properties

 

[Blister]

It seems that mars and saturn debilitated would be better: "I doesn't get any worse than this."

 

[JUPITERASC]

It seems that mars and saturn debilitated would be better: "I doesn't get any worse than this."

Yeah, this is what I originally had heard, that malefics may not necessarily be good in traditional astrology, but they are at least "less bad" when dignified.
It's why I was so surprised by the notion that malefic planets should be debilitated.

Not just "..a notion.."
i.e.

REFERENCE TABLE OF ESSENTIAL DIGNITY

a simple example: it is another square Mars in Aries with Saturn in Capricorn (both in a strong position) very good positions and a square that will take the person very high of course with all the difficulties this aspect has....

it is another Mars square Saturn in Taurus (mars) and Leo (Saturn) both in decline and weakness.....a trine for example of Venus in Scorpio with Mars in Cancer (both in a position of weakness and fall) This is not considered a good triangle etc. etc. etc. it is different the trine with Mars in Leo and Saturn in Aries each in the weakness and fall of the other all these and more make a big difference

also an important role for Mars and Saturn is to look at whether the chart is day or night. From my experience, this plays an important role.
and of course from there you can see if it decreases their malefic properties

 

[waybread]

Some astrologers work more with aspects, some more with essential and accidental dignities and debilities.

Mars and Saturn squaring one another can indicate actual cruelty in a nativity, whereas you could get a situation where Mars domiciled in Aries sextiles Saturn domiciled in Aquarius, where Saturnian ability to cope with adversity pairs with martial initiative.

I have natal Saturn in Virgo opposed by Mars in Pisces. Not good, you say! Mars is in its own triplicity, and there is a smidgeon of reception with these two, but not enough to matter much.

Somehow my life turned out OK. How to explain that?

Yes, most quadrant house systems are traditional. Not the oldest systems or the ones preferred by many trads today, but still traditional. (Placidus de Titis 1603-1668.) In most quadrant systems my Saturn moves to the 12th house; and Mars to the 6th, so I think there is something to the planetary joys. These go by planets-in-houses, not by sign.

I think Bonatti's view that a malefic in its own sign loses its sting, makes a certain amount of sense. Planets in astrology are not just data points or a set of thematic rulerships-in-a-box. To the ancients who developed astrology, the planets were gods or were under the tutelage of gods. These anthropomorphic gods had their own biographies and personality traits.

So if we think of Grumpy Old Mr. Saturn, if we put him in a situation where he can't perform well (like Cancer, Leo,) he's going to be even more bad-tempered. But make him the king in his castle (Capricorn, Aquarius) and he has the scope to behave better, even beneficially.

Also I don't know if anyone here uses accidental malefics and benefics. These also go by houses. In Placidus, my 12th house is ruled by Mercury. It is in the beneficial 5th house, making Mercury an accidental benefic. With Aquarius on my 5th house cusp, Saturn and Mercury pick up a lot of reception. (I'd call it mutual reception but some want an aspect to go with that.)

I always think we have to go with the major chart patterns before moving on to the minor ones; but if the majors don't tell the whole story, the minors are worth exploring because they can have a mitigating effect.

 

[Blister]

"Somehow my life turned out OK. How to explain that?"

I have merc aquarius. (edited for context of trad astrology).

Define 'ok'?

 

[waybread]

I'm personally OK with how my life turned out (I'm 75.)

 

[geminimercury]

In my personal opinion, because I study Valens and Valens is fatalistic, sorry I don't go by modern astrology.

The Out of Sect Malefic of your birthchart if strong, it has resource to wreck your chart even more, than if it was weak with no resource.

I take my case as example, I am Natal Scorpio Mars, I am Daychart, Mars is my WORST enemy. Mars is strong in my chart.
Domicile in it own sign, in a good house, spin Direct.
Mars also Ruler my 10th house MC line, Mars is the Lord of my 10th MC
Mars also Ruler my Saturn.

Mars is the Triplicity Lord of my Ascendant.
Triplicity Lord (Venus Mars Moon), Venus Aversion Ascendant, Moon Aversion to Ascendant, Mars Trine Ascendant.

Natal Mars aspect in my chart:
Mars Trine Ascendant
Mars Trine Sun
Mars Trine Mercury
Mars Square Venus
Mars Sextile Jupiter
Mars Conjunct Saturn

All my planets are Aversion, peregrine, Fall, Detriment, except Mars which is the ONLY Domicile planet in my whole chart.

Lolol. Mars has the resource to wreck my chart.

I rather have my Saturn strong in my chart, I need Saturn on my side because I'm Daychart, SECT is everything in Hellenistic. I agreed with @Sunrise on Sect, Mars is not my friend in my birthchart. I just know it not.

 

[geminimercury]

btw, I study Hellenistic astrology, and this is a Traditional board. I want to bring the important of Triplicity Lord that Valens said in his book. As so ALL the Hellenistic books say the same thing.

btw, Mars is more comfortable in Scorpio than Aries (eventhough Mars rule 2 signs), why? Because Mars has TRIPLICITY Lord in Scorpio Water element, and Mars is a Nocturnal planet. The sign Aries is not a nocturnal sign. Scorpio is a nocturnal sign, which Mars is a night planet.

And Saturn is more comfortable in Aquarius than Capricorn, why? Because Saturn has TRIPLICITY Lord in Aquarius Air element, and btw, Saturn is a Diurnal planet. Capricorn is a night sign, while Aquarius is a day sign.

Saturn was NEVER a night planet, Saturn will always in more comfortable in Aquarius, Hellenistic astrology say so.

Just look at this Triplicity table.

 

[JUPITERASC]

btw, I study Hellenistic astrology, and this is a Traditional board. I want to bring the important of Triplicity Lord that Valens said in his book. As so ALL the Hellenistic books say the same thing.

In my personal opinion, because I study Valens and Valens is fatalistic, sorry I don't go by modern astrology.
The Out of Sect Malefic of your birthchart
if strong, it has resource to wreck your chart even more
than if it was weak with no resource.

This is highlighting an important factor

I take my case as example, I am Natal Scorpio Mars, I am Daychart, Mars is my WORST enemy. Mars is strong in my chart.
Domicile in it own sign, in a good house, spin Direct.
Mars also Ruler my 10th house MC line, Mars is the Lord of my 10th MC
Mars also Ruler my Saturn.
Mars is the Triplicity Lord of my Ascendant.
Triplicity Lord (Venus Mars Moon), Venus Aversion Ascendant, Moon Aversion to Ascendant, Mars Trine Ascendant.
Natal Mars aspect in my chart:
Mars Trine Ascendant
Mars Trine Sun
Mars Trine Mercury
Mars Square Venus
Mars Sextile Jupiter
Mars Conjunct Saturn
All my planets are Aversion, peregrine, Fall, Detriment, except Mars which is the ONLY Domicile planet in my whole chart.
Lolol. Mars has the resource to wreck my chart.

I rather have my Saturn strong in my chart, I need Saturn on my side because I'm Daychart, SECT is everything in Hellenistic. I agreed with @Sunrise on Sect, Mars is not my friend in my birthchart. I just know it not.

 

[athenian200]

btw, I study Hellenistic astrology, and this is a Traditional board. I want to bring the important of Triplicity Lord that Valens said in his book. As so ALL the Hellenistic books say the same thing.

btw, Mars is more comfortable in Scorpio than Aries (eventhough Mars rule 2 signs), why? Because Mars has TRIPLICITY Lord in Scorpio Water element, and Mars is a Nocturnal planet. The sign Aries is not a nocturnal sign. Scorpio is a nocturnal sign, which Mars is a night planet.

And Saturn is more comfortable in Aquarius than Capricorn, why? Because Saturn has TRIPLICITY Lord in Aquarius Air element, and btw, Saturn is a Diurnal planet. Capricorn is a night sign, while Aquarius is a day sign.

Saturn was NEVER a night planet, Saturn will always in more comfortable in Aquarius, Hellenistic astrology say so.

Just look at this Triplicity table.

Thanks, I think this may be the information I was looking for when I started this thread.

So, from what I'm hearing, a malefic in its domicile could have more power to act in a malefic way, but that mostly happens if it's out of sect. So if the malefic planet is actually in sect and domicile, then it could actually bring benefits to the native?

That would make sense now why I've heard it both ways. Because they're considering a factor outside of standard dignities and debilities, and the concept of a malefic vs. benefic planet, to decide how the planet will behave in a given chart. That is, the concept of sect that would rarely if ever be considered in non-traditional astrology, even by those who consider dignity and debility.

 

[geminimercury]

Thanks, I think this may be the information I was looking for when I started this thread.

So, from what I'm hearing, a malefic in its domicile could have more power to act in a malefic way, but that mostly happens if it's out of sect. So if the malefic planet is actually in sect and domicile, then it could actually bring benefits to the native?

That would make sense now why I've heard it both ways. Because they're considering a factor outside of standard dignities and debilities, and the concept of a malefic vs. benefic planet, to decide how the planet will behave in a given chart. That is, the concept of sect that would rarely if ever be considered in non-traditional astrology, even by those who consider dignity and debility.

Yep, I don't go by modern astrology, and this is a Traditional board anyways. You right, IF you are a Night chart which Mars is your In Sect, then with a strong Mars, Mars will be benefic for you. Night chart, Mars is your "Malefic in Favor".

Now if you are Daychart, Mars is the Out of Sect Greatest Malefic, and Mars is strong, Mars has all the resource to trouble your chart.

Let me show you this chart, pay attention to what it say, Malefic in Favor, and Most Malefic planet. I use Hellenistic software.

You see where it say Malefic in Favor: Saturn
And it say Most Malefic planet; Mars
This is a Daychart. Mars is NOT your friend.

eta remove chart.

The dispositor tree, everything is loop back to the Domicile Mars, so Mars has the most say in this chart. Scorpio Mars Trine Cancer Asncedant and Mars has Triplicity he is in his own home sign.

Also because Air sign Moon is Aversion to Cancer Ascendant, Air sign Venus also Aversion to Cancer Ascendant. Aversion, they don't see each others.
Air sign do NOT see Water sign Ascendant. However Scorpio Mars can, Mars is the Triplicity Lord of the Ascendant.

Mars is stronger as he spin Direct and Domicile, Saturn spin Retrograde so weaker, and Saturn is rule by Mars. The Lord of Geniture is Mars too.

Mars Trine Sun, Mars Trine Mercury.
Mars abuse Venus very bad, Mars overcome Venus by being in 5th house rise before Venus 8th house, Mars Square Venus exactly 0 orb.

Saturn is weaker in the chart due to being Retrograde, but I don't think it make Saturn more evil than Mars. As you can see it said Most Malefic Out of Sect is Mars, not Saturn.

An Hellenistic astrologer told me, Saturn is not well place compared to Mars, but it does not make Saturn worser than Mars, because Mars is still the Out of Sect MOST Malefic planet, period.

And you see in this Traditional chart, Jupiter cast a Sextile to Saturn, Jupiter is a benefic. Saturn is under the horizon BUT Saturn TRINE Sun, Saturn can see the Sun very well. Well Mars Trine Sun too.
But that is a Sextile of Jupiter and Saturn. Sorry, Mars is still worst in this chart.

But I will say this, this person is quite lucky, this is an abuser chart, a very controlling and VERY ABUSIVE person chart, but something in the chart keep protect and keep save this person butt time after time. This person should have go to jail already for being abusive if it weren't for something in this chart keep save this person butt.

 

[JUPITERASC]

My dear, things are not that simple. From my experience and on a personal level as well, it's one thing to have a strong Saturn and Mars and another to be weak or down or generally in positions of weakness.. it makes a very big difference and it's the substance and detail that make the difference in a map. based on traditional astrology you have to look at a lot of things to see exactly what you are becoming in the planets.
E.g. Exaltation which you consider good but may show exaggerations and in fact the fundamental powers are very useful in other matters as well.

good point - thanks for highlighting

.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Thanks, I think this may be the information I was looking for when I started this thread.
So, from what I'm hearing, a malefic in its domicile could have more power to act in a malefic way, but that mostly happens if it's out of sect.

Traditional astrology
emphasis remains on the TOTALITY OF THE ENTIRE TESTIMONY OF A NATAL
because generalisations are unreliable

So if the malefic planet is actually in sect and domicile, then it could actually bring benefits to the native?

dependent on totality testimony of all 7 classical planets
Sun Moon Mercury Mars Jupiter Saturn

That would make sense now why I've heard it both ways. Because they're considering a factor outside of standard dignities and debilities, and the concept of a malefic vs. benefic planet, to decide how the planet will behave in a given chart. That is, the concept of sect that would rarely if ever be considered in non-traditional astrology, even by those who consider dignity and debility.

.