In traditional astrology, is it worse for Mars and Saturn to be dignified or debilitated?

[waybread]

Yeah, that is definitely something I've thought about. I don't know if I've mentioned this analogy on this forum before or not, but here's something I think about with regards to the malefic planets.

Mars, at least originally, probably symbolized war because it's named for the god of war. And presumably the reason it's regarded as malefic is that most people would think a war is a bad thing. But it occurs to me that not everyone is affected by a war in the same way. The guy who was drafted into a war and maybe lost a limb, would almost certainly see Mars as entirely malefic. But... what about the blacksmith who was selling and repairing weapons during the war? What about the officer that advanced in rank and received a lot of honors and status as a result of the war? What about the guy who gets paid to rebuild the town after the war?

They were all part of the same war, they all likely experienced the energy of Mars in its rawest form, but they might have very different views on whether it was a good or bad thing for them.


I actually have Venus in Taurus in the 12th house, so Venus is both in the 12th, and rules the 12th. I'd... definitely have to say it may have played a negative role in my life. Though going into the details would make for too long a story.


Actually, that's one of my favorite techniques to use, because there are a lot of empty houses that have no planets in them, so looking at the ruler of the sign on a house cusp is often necessary. I wasn't sure if that was also used in traditional astrology.

The meanings of the Hellenistic (and subsequent planets) derive from Mesopotamia, some going back to the Sumerians. Mars was the Babylonian Nergal, who ruled both warfare and drought. The drought connection may explain why astrological Mars became hot and dry. It's actually not the color of blood (another attribution,) but is a light orange. The ancient Greeks originally called Mars "the fiery one." before astrology was introduced from Babylon ca. 300 BCE.

Mars rules athletes, so he has his uses.

Hellenistic astrology is an amazing branch of traditional astrology. But astrology continued through the end of the 16th century, which many additions and changes over the centuries.

 

[waybread]

For VENUS to become malefic requires an AFFLICTION
PLACE IS NOT an AFFLICTION

VENUS is OUT OF SECT in a DAY CHART
i.e.
To be AFFLICTED a STAR MUST be out of SECT
&/or RETROGRADE
&/or in an alien sign
&/or in the term of a malefic functioning as a malefic
&/or attacked by or besieged by malefics
The ATTACKING MALEFIC can ALSO be JUPITER, MOON or SUN.

.

It can get really complicated. Venus is in the night sect, but then does she rise before or after the sun? She's better placed if west of the sun. On the other hand, Venus joys in the 5th house. Aspects have to be included. Then is it a man's or woman's chart? Some of the Hellenists thought that a strong Venus could make a man effeminate (in the days long before LGBTQ+ sensitivities.)

 

[geminimercury]

In Hellenistic planets rise before the Sun is call Oriental, planets right after the Sun is call Occidental.
And Hellenistic said planets rise before the Sun is STRONGER than rise after the Sun.

All my planets rises before the Sun, with the exception of Moon. Saturn Mars Jupiter Venus all rise before the Sun, with Saturn the first planet the rise in my chart, follow by Mars. So they are all Oriental planets.
The Moon rise last and rise after the Sun. The Moon is Occidental in my chart.

So Athenian200 case, you have an Occidental Venus, as your Venus rise after your Sun.

btw, in the Hellenistic software, you get points for the planets being Oriental, gotdock points for being Occidental.

Domicile get 5 points
Exaltation get 4 points (this go by both Hellenistic and Medieval William Lily also use this scoreline). That is why Exaltation is not stronger than Domicile, it get less points than Domicile.
Triplicity Lord get 3 points. Example Saturn in Aquarius get 3 points, but Saturn in Capricorn does NOT. Look at the Triplicity table.
Bound get 2 points
Face get 2 points

Mars in Scorpio get Triplicity points, Mars in Aries does not. The Fire Trigon Triplicity does NOT include Aries Mars as Mars is a Night time planet.

Fire signs Trigon Triplicity all go to the Daytime planets, Sun Jupiter Saturn, it does NOT include the night team Mars Venus Moon.

I take example my Moon, I am Gemini Moon. Sorry Pisces Moon kick my butt, simple it because Moon has Triplicity in Water Trigon, the Night planet Moon NEVER have Triplicity in the Air Trigon.
Moon will always be happy in Water and Earth signs (where it has Triplicty), than Air and Fire sign.

That how Hellenistic see it. So don't think you have a Fire Moon like Leo Moon you are good, Lolol. Nope. Your Moon has No Triplicity.

I am not even sugarcoat myself, I am Gemini Moon, my Moon has No Triplicity niether, lolol.

 

[JUPITERASC]

@athenian200 What JupiterAsc said.Venus in Malefic Mars Bound, lol. Scorpio Mars Square Venus EXACTLY at 0 orb Scorpio Saturn also Square Venus but wider 8 orb My Venus does not cost me trouble, I just don't feel it and it does not give me benefic, due to it lock in Idle house, and BOTH Malefics Square it. I am long term married, married too long. I am Daychart anyways, I don't need night planet Venus (that for Night sect), I need Jupiter on my side, I have Capricorn Jupiter in it Fall 7th house

Visiting Valens - Bounds ​

 

[JUPITERASC]

In Hellenistic planets rise before the Sun is call Oriental, planets right after the Sun is call Occidental. And Hellenistic said planets rise before the Sun is STRONGER than rise after the Sun. So Athenian200 case, you have an Occidental Venus, as your Venus rise after your Sun.

Oriental Venus & Occidental Venus
in traditional astrology.

 

[waybread]

I think the "female" planets are expected to be occidental, following the king in his retinue. The "male" planets, including Mercury, when oriental, are called "spear carriers" and are strengthened if preceding the sun. Of course, this assumes that none of them is combust.

 

[IRIS70]

Generally, I know that in modern astrology, it's seen as somewhat negative for any planet to be debilitated and dignity is generally regarded as better for all planets, if it's taken into account at all.

The thing that makes me curious here, is that I have seen at least one traditional astrologer seem to suggest it is better for Saturn and Mars to be debilitated because they have a malefic influence, and thus you don't want them to be in a position where they can operate effectively. So if this is the case, you actually wouldn't want Mars in Capricorn, Aries, or Scorpio because it would be too powerful there, and you wouldn't want Saturn in Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius for a similar reason.

So, is this actually the traditional view? That it's better if malefic planets are debilitated? The reason I ask is because that perspective of wanting malefic planets to be debilitated was rather new to me, and it didn't seem to fit with anything I've heard before.

You've already got plenty of answers to your question. I agree with all those that focus on sect, it is VERY important in Hellinistic Astrology. I feel that the out of sect Malefic is better placed in Cadent houses, in which they can cause less harm. This is why Saturn joys in 12th and Mars in 6th (one of the reasons). If they are in angular houses, they cause lots of trouble and that is out there for everyone to see, so remarkable. So this is about Accidential dignity and we do NOT wish to have them dignified in that sense.
On the other hand, having a Dignified planet in Essential Dignity is a blessing, as the planet functions well, is better behaved and can do the job it is about effectively. Definitely the out of sect Malefic is there to cause the most challenges. I mean that the in-sect malefic will still cause challenges, but it's negative significations are suppressed and more positive or constructive significations are brought out. For example, I have a Diurnal chart, I got married and had my 1st child, with Saturn (the in-sect malefic) being the LoY (ruling the 5th in natal, although in Fall, in Aries and in natal 8th). However, having the malefic in question in Essential dignity, it can produce beneficial results and is less damaging in bad houses, as it shows stability, or indicates stable things.

All in all, it depends on the chart. There is not a general rule for everything. I mean, that things may be slightly different, if the planet in question is maltreated by the other malefic, for example, which may happen to be in an angular house etc. The planet's condition is important too, say if rx. I mean, it is one thing to have an Aries Mars Direct and totally another having it rx. Of course, there are "Bonification" factors too, let's not forget eg having the malefic in "adherence"/applying aspect to a Benefic, especially a Dignified Benefic/planet, or if "besieged" by benefics.

Of course, the subject of sect is not easy to address, it has been described already by other posters. In general, Diurnal planets is good to be above the Horizon, or at least in the Hemisphere the Sun occupies, most preferably in Fire/ Air signs. The other way round for those of the night sect.

 

[JUPITERASC]

You've already got plenty of answers to your question. I agree with all those that focus on sect, it is VERY important in Hellinistic Astrology. I feel that the out of sect Malefic is better placed in Cadent houses, in which they can cause less harm. This is why Saturn joys in 12th and Mars in 6th (one of the reasons). If they are in angular houses, they cause lots of trouble and that is out there for everyone to see, so remarkable. So this is about Accidential dignity and we do NOT wish to have them dignified in that sense.
On the other hand, having a Dignified planet in Essential Dignity is a blessing, as the planet functions well, is better behaved and can do the job it is about effectively. Definitely the out of sect Malefic is there to cause the most challenges. I mean that the in-sect malefic will still cause challenges, but it's negative significations are suppressed and more positive or constructive significations are brought out. For example, I have a Diurnal chart, I got married and had my 1st child, with Saturn (the in-sect malefic) being the LoY (ruling the 5th in natal, although in Fall, in Aries and in natal 8th). However, having the malefic in question in Essential dignity, it can produce beneficial results and is less damaging in bad houses, as it shows stability, or indicates stable things.

All in all, it depends on the chart. There is not a general rule for everything. I mean, that things may be slightly different, if the planet in question is maltreated by the other malefic, for example, which may happen to be in an angular house etc. The planet's condition is important too, say if rx. I meanThat's , it is one thing to have an Aries Mars Direct and totally another having it rx. Of course, there are "Bonification" factors too, let's not forget eg having the malefic in "adherence"/applying aspect to a Benefic, especially a Dignified Benefic/planet, or if "besieged" by benefics.

And so essential to consider the TOTALITY OF TESTIMONIES
of each natal chart individually
i.e
generalizing is unreliable

Of course, the subject of sect is not easy to address, it has been described already by other posters. In general, Diurnal planets is good to be above the Horizon, or at least in the Hemisphere the Sun occupies, most preferably in Fire/ Air signs. The other way round for those of the night sect.

MORE DETAILED INFO ON SECT FOR INTERESTED BEGINNERS

 

[athenian200]

I definitely appreciate learning about the concept of occidental and oriental planets, though Venus does seem to be an exception to the normal rule there, and isn't worse off being occidental. Pretty sure Mars, Saturn, and Mercury are all oriental, though. I think the Moon and Venus are both occidental, but not too sure about the Moon.

So, as far as Venus having a negative influence on my life, I suspect the main problem there within the perspective of traditional astrology would actually be that although Venus is domicile in Taurus, it's also in the bounds of Mars, and out of sect. Not to mention, I think it's also pretty close to Algol, but don't know how close the conjunction would have to be for that to matter.

 

[waybread]

Athenian, Venus has multiple meanings. In a heterosexual man's chart she shows his ideal female. I think in a gay man's chart, she is more generally the object of his affections. Venus generically rules the fine and performing arts, and the principles of beautify and esthetics. Venus rules luxuries like jewelry as well as activities associated with femininity, like hair-dressing.

Venus shows our capacity to appreciate beauty.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I definitely appreciate learning about the concept of occidental and oriental planets, though Venus does seem to be an exception to the normal rule there, and isn't worse off being occidental. Pretty sure Mars, Saturn, and Mercury are all oriental, though. I think the Moon and Venus are both occidental, but not too sure about the Moon.

So, as far as Venus having a negative influence on my life, I suspect the main problem there within the perspective of traditional astrology would actually be that although Venus is domicile in Taurus, it's also in the bounds of Mars, and out of sect. Not to mention, I think it's also pretty close to Algol, but don't know how close the conjunction would have to be for that to matter.

Thus Traditional astrology: Venus is AFFLICTED - good catch

.

 

[athenian200]

Athenian, Venus has multiple meanings. In a heterosexual man's chart she shows his ideal female. I think in a gay man's chart, she is more generally the object of his affections. Venus generically rules the fine and performing arts, and the principles of beautify and esthetics. Venus rules luxuries like jewelry as well as activities associated with femininity, like hair-dressing.

Venus shows our capacity to appreciate beauty.

Hmm... so, I think I need to relate my life experience here to explain why I see it as having a negative influence on my life, though I was trying to avoid it mostly because the explanation will be kind of long-winded.

Let's see. I believed I was asexual for most of my life, because in high school people showed me various pictures of both men and women, and neither type of picture actually did anything for me, nor did simply seeing others that most regarded as attractive. It wasn't until age 29 that I figured out this wasn't the case.

At age 29, there was this odd girl. A lot of people got angry at her for cheating on a man who was respected within the community. I wound up kind of feeling bad for the girl, reaching out and trying to comfort her, listen to her side of the story. She wound up telling me about all the hard things she'd been through, as well as all the guys she'd ever been with and the fantasies she'd had, etc. She was in her mid-20s, apparently had not been single since she was 15, and the idea of being alone terrified her. If anything, it seemed like she started to lean on me emotionally a bit due to not having many female friends.

Eventually, this girl fell in love with me and started pushing me to share pictures of myself. At first, I thought it was a joke, but she seemed pretty serious. I was rather surprised because usually women see me as a friend, and I'm generally okay with that... so I wondered if I sent odd signals this time. It turns out, she apparently has a hard time developing an emotional connection with anyone without turning it sexual. After she started acting this way, asking for pictures and pushing to make things sexual/romantic, I fell in love with her.

So, the thing I figured out from this situation is that I assumed I was asexual because I don't have this way of being where I see something attractive, know that I want to possess it, and then chase it and try to do what it takes to get it. That's the way sexuality seems to work for most people. But in my case... it doesn't. Instead, it seems like there are a lot of conditions required for me to feel anything in that department. Like, first I have to feel an emotional connection. Then, the other person has to make me feel somewhat attractive or desirable to them. Third, it really helps a lot if they're very assertive and like to take charge in the department of moving the relationship forwards, kind of seeming like they want to chase me or something. Since she was the only person ever to make all three of those things happen, she was the only one that ever made me feel anything in that way.

Finally, the girl did wind up marrying another guy who lived closer to her. However, she never kept her relationship a secret from me, although she kept talking about marrying me and seemed unsure of what she wanted right up to the last minute. When she got married, I assumed we would stop talking, but that didn't happen. Instead, she told her husband I was gay to ensure he didn't ask her to stop interacting with me. She said I have something of a "gay vibe" and that she was sure he wouldn't suspect anything. Thus, we talk to this day, she complains about her husband to me all the time, like how whenever she asks to be intimate, he has a headache, etc. In the end, I didn't get too angry about this although it did hurt a bit, because I ultimately valued the emotional connection more than the sexual one, and she probably knew that was the case and that I'd be there regardless. She basically said I'm the only person she doesn't feel like she has to hide things from, and also said, somewhat cryptically, that she thanks me for "showing her how to love her husband" at one point, as if her relationship with me taught her what she needed to know to get him interested in her? It was very strange.

So, from my experience, I think it's pretty obvious how the traditional Venus in 12th house signification of secret relationships played out here, as well as how a strong Venus could potentially result in a man being effeminate, as you pointed out the Hellenistic astrologers said.

The reason I see Venus as a somewhat negative influence in my life here is, well... because it is so strongly placed and above the horizon, that I think it is at least partly responsible for cursing me with an extremely atypical way of experiencing and processing the sexual side of life. To be fair, I'm sure Mars being in the 8th house in Capricorn may have also somehow played a role in Venus having such an unbalanced influence here, but I don't know how much of one. The way Venus was described in one of those videos really hit home for me, actually... when it was described as "the light that beckons," draws things into itself, passive, etc.

Because it seems like that's a perfect description of my issues in relationships... on some level, the sexual side of my nature is too passive and wants to draw things into itself, beckoning rather than commanding. And that way of being causes so many problems for me that I thought I was totally asexual for 29 years, because that's how long it took me to find a situation where that type of sexuality can even get activated.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Hmm... so, I think I need to relate my life experience here to explain why I see it as having a negative influence on my life, though I was trying to avoid it mostly because the explanation will be kind of long-winded. Let's see. I believed I was asexual for most of my life, because in high school people showed me various pictures of both men and women, and neither type of picture actually did anything for me, nor did simply seeing others that most regarded as attractive. It wasn't until age 29 that I figured out this wasn't the case. At age 29, there was this odd girl. A lot of people got angry at her for cheating on a man who was respected within the community. I wound up kind of feeling bad for the girl, reaching out and trying to comfort her, listen to her side of the story. She wound up telling me about all the hard things she'd been through, as well as all the guys she'd ever been with and the fantasies she'd had, etc. She was in her mid-20s, apparently had not been single since she was 15, and the idea of being alone terrified her. If anything, it seemed like she started to lean on me emotionally a bit due to not having many female friends.

Eventually, this girl fell in love with me and started pushing me to share pictures of myself. At first, I thought it was a joke, but she seemed pretty serious. I was rather surprised because usually women see me as a friend, and I'm generally okay with that... so I wondered if I sent odd signals this time. It turns out, she apparently has a hard time developing an emotional connection with anyone without turning it sexual. After she started acting this way, asking for pictures and pushing to make things sexual/romantic, I fell in love with her.

So, the thing I figured out from this situation is that I assumed I was asexual because I don't have this way of being where I see something attractive, know that I want to possess it, and then chase it and try to do what it takes to get it. That's the way sexuality seems to work for most people. But in my case... it doesn't. Instead, it seems like there are a lot of conditions required for me to feel anything in that department. Like, first I have to feel an emotional connection. Then, the other person has to make me feel somewhat attractive or desirable to them. Third, it really helps a lot if they're very assertive and like to take charge in the department of moving the relationship forwards, kind of seeming like they want to chase me or something. Since she was the only person ever to make all three of those things happen, she was the only one that ever made me feel anything in that way.

Finally, the girl did wind up marrying another guy who lived closer to her. However, she never kept her relationship a secret from me, although she kept talking about marrying me and seemed unsure of what she wanted right up to the last minute. When she got married, I assumed we would stop talking, but that didn't happen. Instead, she told her husband I was gay to ensure he didn't ask her to stop interacting with me. She said I have something of a "gay vibe" and that she was sure he wouldn't suspect anything. Thus, we talk to this day, she complains about her husband to me all the time, like how whenever she asks to be intimate, he has a headache, etc. In the end, I didn't get too angry about this although it did hurt a bit, because I ultimately valued the emotional connection more than the sexual one, and she probably knew that was the case and that I'd be there regardless. She basically said I'm the only person she doesn't feel like she has to hide things from, and also said, somewhat cryptically, that she thanks me for "showing her how to love her husband" at one point, as if her relationship with me taught her what she needed to know to get him interested in her? It was very strange.

So, from my experience, I think it's pretty obvious how the traditional Venus in 12th house signification of secret relationships played out here, as well as how a strong Venus could potentially result in a man being effeminate, as you pointed out the Hellenistic astrologers said. The reason I see Venus as a somewhat negative influence in my life here is, well... because it is so strongly placed and above the horizon, that I think it is at least partly responsible for cursing me with an extremely atypical way of experiencing and processing the sexual side of life.

and then also
not only out of Sect but also Venus is in the bounds of Lesser Malefic MARS

The way Venus was described in one of those videos really hit home for me, actually... when it was described as "the light that beckons," draws things into itself, passive, etc. Because it seems like that's a perfect description of my issues in relationships... on some level, the sexual side of my nature is too passive and wants to draw things into itself, beckoning rather than commanding. And that way of being causes so many problems for me that I thought I was totally asexual for 29 years, because that's how long it took me to find a situation where that type of sexuality can even get activated.

Great that video is helpful with understanding Traditional Astrology Venus
and how an OCCIDENTAL VENUS is more passive

.

 

[waybread]

Athenian, thanks for sharing about your private life. I have to tell myself that I am not an advice columnist but you might think about withdrawing communication from a woman who is so challenged with being truthful -- especially to her husband. I don't know what happened to these "pictures" or if I understand correctly what you mean by them, but explicit photos have been used for blackmail and shaming purposes if a relationship goes sour. (You know all this.)

I think it's only normal for some people to be "in love with love." The urge to pair-up outweighs a lot of common sense about whether another person is actually suitable. True love goes by synastry (chart comparison) where inter-aspects between Mars and Venus are a good indicator of romantic/sexual compatibility. So your natal Venus may feel like she's locked up and someone threw away the key. But if someone's Mars pings your Venus, you'll know about it. (Ditto for Venus-Jupiter and Ascendant-Venus inter=aspects.)

I think sometimes the problem is that a person thinks s/he's supposed to be different than s/he is, in order to conform to social standards. But if a more solitary less sexual life works for you, then it actually isn't a problem. The 12th is a house for contemplation. I'm not saying you want to take up holy orders, but obviously a lot of priests and monks take vows of chastity to focus on their spiritual lives, so it's not unusual for people to live more solitary monastic lives. with a 12th house focus.

Venus may show where you find beauty in your life.

 

[JUPITERASC]

To be fair, I'm sure Mars being in the 8th house in Capricorn may have also somehow played a role in Venus having such an unbalanced influence here, but I don't know how much of one.

NOTE: Venus is in the bounds of Lesser Malefic MARS
thus in the bounds of a malefic functioning as a malefic
i.e.

For VENUS to become malefic requires an AFFLICTION
PLACE IS NOT an AFFLICTION

TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY :
VENUS :, benefic, feminine and nocturnal.
Venus controls desire, love, merriment, friendship, companionship
acquisition of additional property, agreements on favorable terms, marriages,
music-making, sweet singing, painting, mixing of colours, embroidery,
perfume making, working with gold and precious stones,
giving and receiving, laughter and rejoicing,
assistance from women, the reproductive organs, the secondary sex characteristics,
multi-coloured adornments, precious stones,
VETTIUS VALENS THE ANTHOLOGY

VENUS is OUT OF SECT in a DAY CHART i.e. To be AFFLICTED a STAR MUST be out of SECT &/or RETROGRADE &/or in an alien sign &/or in the term of a malefic functioning as a malefic &/or attacked by or besieged by malefics The ATTACKING MALEFIC can ALSO be JUPITER, MOON or SUN.

 

[athenian200]

I think it's only normal for some people to be "in love with love." The urge to pair-up outweighs a lot of common sense about whether another person is actually suitable. True love goes by synastry (chart comparison) where inter-aspects between Mars and Venus are a good indicator of romantic/sexual compatibility. So your natal Venus may feel like she's locked up and someone threw away the key. But if someone's Mars pings your Venus, you'll know about it. (Ditto for Venus-Jupiter and Ascendant-Venus inter=aspects.)

The interesting thing about the girl's chart, is she has Mars near the MC in Virgo, Venus in the 7th in Taurus (which means Scorpio rising)... actually, her Venus is conjunct mine to the degree. Though in her case, Venus is oriental.

For me, I guess there is very much that feeling of Venus being locked up... that's a good way to describe it.

I think sometimes the problem is that a person thinks s/he's supposed to be different than s/he is, in order to conform to social standards. But if a more solitary less sexual life works for you, then it actually isn't a problem. The 12th is a house for contemplation. I'm not saying you want to take up holy orders, but obviously a lot of priests and monks take vows of chastity to focus on their spiritual lives, so it's not unusual for people to live more solitary monastic lives. with a 12th house focus.

Well, I think in my case, I've chosen a more solitary and monastic life because the alternative is something I would find difficult.

I mean, I think it's safe to say that having a strong Venus placement like that and not really knowing how (or even wanting to) play a more "Mars" role in life goes against social standards, for sure. So, I guess I'm content to be alone rather than force myself to be something I'm not so I can have a partner, but it's hard to separate the desire to conform to social standards out from that entirely. It really doesn't help that I am, by nature, a somewhat passive person that dislikes unpleasantness and wants to make others happy, and going against social standards usually doesn't make others happy, so avoiding notice and/or going along with the path of least resistance tends to be more appealing.

That is to say, I would need to be more assertive in order to meet social standards, or else I would need to be more assertive to reject the social standards and do things my own way. Both paths would require a bit more assertiveness than what I have shown in life thus far. But I'm so passive and uncertain a lot of the time that it feels like the easiest thing to do is just do the bare minimum to keep from getting yelled at with regards to social standards and do my best to avoid attention the rest of the time so that the standards won't be applied as much. That is, to neither put work into meeting the social standards properly, nor display the courage to fully reject them.

Venus may show where you find beauty in your life.

I would tend to agree with that, a lot of the music I enjoy does have 12th house themes for sure.

 

[JUPITERASC]

The interesting thing about the girl's chart, is she has Mars near the MC in Virgo, Venus in the 7th in Taurus (which means Scorpio rising)... actually, her Venus is conjunct mine to the degree. Though in her case, Venus is oriental.
For me, I guess there is very much that feeling of Venus being locked up... that's a good way to describe it.

HOUSE 12 - captivity

Well, I think in my case, I've chosen a more solitary and monastic life because the alternative is something I would find difficult.

HOUSE 12 - isolation

I mean, I think it's safe to say that having a strong Venus placement like that and not really knowing how (or even wanting to) play a more "Mars" role in life goes against social standards, for sure. So, I guess I'm content to be alone rather than force myself to be something I'm not so I can have a partner, but it's hard to separate the desire to conform to social standards out from that entirely. It really doesn't help that I am, by nature, a somewhat passive person that dislikes unpleasantness and wants to make others happy, and going against social standards usually doesn't make others happy, so avoiding notice and/or going along with the path of least resistance tends to be more appealing.

That is to say, I would need to be more assertive in order to meet social standards, or else I would need to be more assertive to reject the social standards and do things my own way. Both paths would require a bit more assertiveness than what I have shown in life thus far. But I'm so passive and uncertain a lot of the time that it feels like the easiest thing to do is just do the bare minimum to keep from getting yelled at with regards to social standards and do my best to avoid attention the rest of the time so that the standards won't be applied as much. That is, to neither put work into meeting the social standards properly, nor display the courage to fully reject them.
I would tend to agree with that, a lot of the music I enjoy does have 12th house themes for sure.

 

[waybread]

Venus means so many things. While she is the quintessential female planet in western astrology, in the ancient Near East, she also had a warlike dimension (Anat, Ishtar.) In a general way, Venus shows what or who you attract.

In Hellenistic astrology, Venus as the "good spirit" joys in the fifth house of enjoyable activities.

In the 12th house Venus would seem to appreciate solitary pursuits. There may even be an esthetic of suffering. The old trads didn't know about singing the blues, but they wrote about melancholy, and medieval and early modern astrologers knew all about holy orders with their vows of chastity. A lot of them were clerics, at a time when few Christians were literate. Some of them knew all about renunciation, and solitude.

One chart that comes to mind is Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest and theologian. He had a large 12th house Taurus stellium that included Venus.

Pierre Teilhard De Chardin, horoscope for birth date 1 May 1881, born in Orcières, with Astrodatabank biography

Horoscope and astrology data of Pierre Teilhard De Chardin born on 1 May 1881 Orcières, France, with biography

www.astro.com

 

[JUPITERASC]

Thanks, I think this may be the information I was looking for when I started this thread.
So, from what I'm hearing, a malefic in its domicile could have more power to act in a malefic way, but that mostly happens if it's out of sect. So if the malefic planet is actually in sect and domicile, then it could actually bring benefits to the native?

HOWEVER
also
IF Lesser BENEFIC VENUS is AFFLICTED by being out of SECT acting as a MALEFIC
then check
whether Venus is influenced somehow from the NECESSARY PLACE
by calculating
The NECESSARY PLACE
i.e.
The NECESSAEY PLACE is ASC + MARS - SATURN
and reverse
because the NECESSARY PLACE
is where poor/sad people fail and/or are disappointed
and/or self-imprisoned aka stuck, trapped, hung up

.