In traditional astrology, is it worse for Mars and Saturn to be dignified or debilitated?

[conspiracy theorist]

Another chart that is interesting to study, based on what has gone before in this discussion, is that of Adolf Hitler.

Adolf Hitler, horoscope for birth date 20 April 1889, born in Braunau, with Astrodatabank biography

Horoscope and astrology data of Adolf Hitler born on 20 April 1889 Braunau, Austria, with biography

www.astro.com

What conclusions would you draw from the position of the malefics in this chart, vs. the manifestation and outcomes of his life?

 

[geminimercury]

Right, that makes sense.

So, does that mean there is, indeed, a "default perspective" where Mars and Saturn are malefic and Venus and Jupiter are benefic, but which doesn't always hold up under scrutiny of an individual chart?

Or is the way the term is being used different when referring to the lesser/greater malefic, than just when saying a planet is acting as a functional malefic?

The standard of Saturn the Greater Malefic and Mars the Lesser Malefic, and Jupiter the Greater Malefic and Venus the Lesser Malefic is the standard definition in Traditional astrology.

Then go deeper you will see Sect come in, in Day chart the MOST Malefic is Mars, Saturn is the Malefic in Favor.

Then you go deeper you see Triplicity which I talk alot above. Venus has Triplicity in Water and Earth sign, she is a NIGHT time planet. She better in Taurus than in Libra, she is a Nocturnal planet afterall.

Jupiter is better in Saggitarius than Pisces. Jupiter has Triplicity Lord in Fire and Air sign. Jupiter is a DAY time planet, Diurnal, Jupiter always prefer Sagittarius over Pisces.

Mars has Triplicity in Water and Earth sign. Mars is a Night planet, he always prefer in Scorpio than Aries. Aries is Fire Day sign which the Sun Jupiter and Saturn has Triplicity in.
Same case with Saturn, look at the Triplicity table

You should get into Primary Direction and Secondary Progressions. It helps give me an answer to which Malefic is worst in my case.

 

[geminimercury]

eta: I take it back the Mars in 7th house that is in Placidus, in Whole sign Mars in 8th house. I don't read Placidius

Mars his not Hitler friend, Day chart, Mars also Opposition Ascendant attacking the Ascendant. In Hellenistic, any planets Opposition your Ascendant will attack your Ascendant one way or another, if it a Benefic maybe it mild up a bit, but if it a Malefic, good luck.

Every time suicidal case, it Mars that pull the trigger too, Mars is the DRIVE, you need Mars to pull the gun trigger.

I have not study Hitler chart, I don't study famous people charts, I only study charts of my family members. But by a glance I said Mars is worst in Hitler chart.

I have Capricorn Jupiter Opposition Ascendant, I was told by an Hellenistic astrologer, that Jupiter is a nuisance in my chart because it Opposition my Ascendant, it will attack my Ascendant.
If Jupiter does not want to help me, Jupiter can make my life miserable, it Opposition my Ascendant, and in it own Bound mean it has more resource to do me more harm if it wants, it still Opposition my Ascendant (me).

I believe. Valens say same thing, standard definition in Hellenistic, any planets OPPOSITION your Ascendant will attack the Ascendant (you).

You not have to agree to what Hellenistic books say, but in the book it say it like that, so I just write out what I read.

 

[geminimercury]

And if anyone interest in Hilter chart interpretation use Traditional, read this:
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/timing-symbolism-in-the-chart-of-adolf-hitler/

That is a Traditional site emphasis on Hellenistic even, only use the 7 inner planets, talk about Hitler raise to power and death

 

[waybread]

Right, that makes sense.

So, does that mean there is, indeed, a "default perspective" where Mars and Saturn are malefic and Venus and Jupiter are benefic, but which doesn't always hold up under scrutiny of an individual chart?

Or is the way the term is being used different when referring to the lesser/greater malefic, than just when saying a planet is acting as a functional malefic?

Kind of a technical point, I know, but it's just that now I've seen examples of situations where Mars or Saturn can work for rather than against the chart native. Which I guess would mean... under the right circumstances, the malefic planets wouldn't tend function as malefics in a specific chart. I guess that's the right way to say it?

It's really complicated; which is why, at some point, most astrologers note that you have to take the chart as a whole. If you like (although I don't,) think of keeping a score card for major and minor dignities and debilities. And then let real life be your guide. When looking at your own chart, as you get to know the different thematic rulerships of the planets, see how they play out in your life.

Just for example, Saturn rules farming and Mars rules athletes. So if someone wants to be a farmer or an athlete, the malefics play out differently. Mars is a fiery planet, but does fire warm you or burn you?

Sweet little Venus can become accidentally malefic if she rules the 12th 8th or 6th house.

What about those essential dignities like terms and faces, and accidental dignities like being in the first or 10th house? Planetary joys go by house.

Think about reception, especially mutual reception. Unless they're both really debilitated, planets in the signs of one another's rulership are beneficial, like two best friends who help each other. (Cf. Mercury in Aries and Mars in Gemini.)

Do you work with house cusp rulers (lords)? I think they're really important. Demetra George suggested that the planetary ruler of the sign on the cusp of a given house wants to help the affairs of that house, but whether it can do so effectively depends upon its own position in the horoscope.

And aspects matter. Saturn falls in Aries, for example; but if it's trined by a domiciled Jupiter in Sagittarius, that's helpful.

 

[geminimercury]

@athenian200

You know back to which Malefic worst in a chart, I still go by Sect, Mars still the Greatest Malefic in Daychart, Saturn still the Malefic in Favor.

My Primary Direction and Secondary Progression point to Saturn Angular at my IC (home) when my father and my child died. BUT is Primary Direction and Secondary Progression alone is enough to conclude that Saturn is worst in a Daychart though? I not sure.

My Natal Saturn in 5th house and Retrograde, so ofcourse in Secondary Progression it will go backward to my IC 4th
My Natal Mars in Scorpio in 5th spin Direct, this is why in my Secondary Progression Mars does NOT go backward to my IC like Saturn.

Now think about it, it not enough to conclude Saturn is worser in my chart just based on that, everyone with a RETROGRADE Saturn, their Secondary Direction, Saturn will go backward.

I still say the safe rule is Sect light. Saturn is still your friend in Daychart, lolol

 

[waybread]

Oh course, there were at least two faces to Hitler: the unsuccessful young man and his inglorious death; and then his rise to absolute power.

It has long been noted that Hitler's chart is distinguished by a lot of quintiles. This actually is a traditional aspect, promoted by Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) But not much used, even today.

https://faculty.umb.edu/gary_zabel/Courses/Phil%20281b/Philosophy%20of%20Magic/Arcana/Renaissance/kepler.html#:~:text=In%20addition%20to%20the%20Ptolemaic,sixth%20(3%3A5).

The quintile carries the meanings of talent+ ambition.

Otherwise the chart doesn't much help to explain Hitler's rise to power. Moon and Mars in detriment, Jupiter in its fall. Venus is domiciled but retrograde and conjunct Mars.

Saturn is in-sect, angular, and in its own terms and face. Even though Saturn is the Granddaddy malefic, he's not so badly placed in this chart.

 

[geminimercury]

As for Hitler Rise to Power, it explain here by this astrologer. @waybread want to share this with you as you an astrologer yourself. Not saying you have to agree to what it say, but it how this person explain Hitler rise to power.

Quote from the link: https://sevenstarsastrology.com/timing-symbolism-in-the-chart-of-adolf-hitler/
[[ Rise to Power
In Hitler’s chart, one of the clearest indications of his rise to power is the Moon’s applying conjunction to Jupiter. The Moon signifies power by its light and its rulership of the 10th house (Cancer), as well as its separating trine from the Sun. Jupiter signifies fortune and opportunity, connecting it to the Moon and the 10th house. Jupiter is also the exalted ruler of the 10th house and both planets aspect it. ]]

Age 45: Seizes Power​

[[ Hitler seized dictatorial powers in Germany on 08/02/1934. He was 45 years old. Age 45 is an annual profection of his Ascendant to Cancer, the 10th house, ruled by the Moon. As noted, the Moon is conjunct Jupiter in the natal chart, with both pertinent to the 10th.

The solar return for the year had the return Moon in the 10th house. Therefore, the Moon, lord of the year, highlights here significations related to the 10th house, which pertains to leadership, authority, and actions. Additionally, return Jupiter was transiting in the 1st house of the self, in the Jupiter bound of Libra. The indications for the Moon-Jupiter conjunction with respect to matters of leadership become realized. ]]

 

[JUPITERASC]

Right, that makes sense.
So, does that mean there is, indeed, a "default perspective" where Mars and Saturn are malefic and Venus and Jupiter are benefic,

TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY BASICS
- MARS is THE LESSER MALEFIC - VENUS is THE LESSER BENEFIC
&
SATURN is THE GREATER MALEFIC - JUPITER is THE GREATER BENEFIC

but which doesn't always hold up under scrutiny of an individual chart? Or is the way the term is being used different when referring to the lesser/greater malefic, than just when saying a planet is acting as a functional malefic? Kind of a technical point, I know, but it's just that now I've seen examples of situations where Mars or Saturn can work for rather than against the chart native. Which I guess would mean... under the right circumstances, the malefic planets wouldn't tend function as malefics in a specific chart. I guess that's the right way to say it?

Exactly the reason TOTALITY OF THE ENTIRE TESTIMONY OF A NATAL CANNOT BE IGNORED
because generalisations are unreliable - so is dependent on totality testimony of all 7 classical planets Sun Moon Mercury Mars Jupiter Saturn

also an important role for Mars and Saturn is to look at whether the chart is day or night. From my experience, this plays an important role. and of course from there you can see if it decreases their malefic properties

.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I am just a student in Hellenistic so I am still learning about Primary Direction, Directions/Distributions method of Hellenistic.

I found it accurate in my case, as it answer the question of which was the worser Malefics (Mars or Saturn) during the hardest years of my life that was when my father died and my own child died. I found my answer in there in Primary Direction method, it Saturn....but Primary Direction it multiple incidents, many years that I consider the most painful years of my life, the Promiser were all Saturn. I can't blame Mars. And Primary Direction matches with all the big events happended in my life too. But that just my case only.

Because your natal birthtime is reliably accurate

It might not matches other people charts and their life events.

Birthtime reliable accuracy is necessary for it to match

But it a tool for me to help figure out which Malefic is worser in my chart.

Birth Time Rectification, Online Astrology | Astro-Seek.com

www.Astro-Seek.com - Seek and meet people born on the same date as you

horoscopes.astro-seek.com

Primary Directions can be see in that link. if you want top see your Primary Directions.

 

[athenian200]

Just for example, Saturn rules farming and Mars rules athletes. So if someone wants to be a farmer or an athlete, the malefics play out differently. Mars is a fiery planet, but does fire warm you or burn you?

Yeah, that is definitely something I've thought about. I don't know if I've mentioned this analogy on this forum before or not, but here's something I think about with regards to the malefic planets.

Mars, at least originally, probably symbolized war because it's named for the god of war. And presumably the reason it's regarded as malefic is that most people would think a war is a bad thing. But it occurs to me that not everyone is affected by a war in the same way. The guy who was drafted into a war and maybe lost a limb, would almost certainly see Mars as entirely malefic. But... what about the blacksmith who was selling and repairing weapons during the war? What about the officer that advanced in rank and received a lot of honors and status as a result of the war? What about the guy who gets paid to rebuild the town after the war?

They were all part of the same war, they all likely experienced the energy of Mars in its rawest form, but they might have very different views on whether it was a good or bad thing for them.

Sweet little Venus can become accidentally malefic if she rules the 12th 8th or 6th house.

I actually have Venus in Taurus in the 12th house, so Venus is both in the 12th, and rules the 12th. I'd... definitely have to say it may have played a negative role in my life. Though going into the details would make for too long a story.

Do you work with house cusp rulers (lords)? I think they're really important. Demetra George suggested that the planetary ruler of the sign on the cusp of a given house wants to help the affairs of that house, but whether it can do so effectively depends upon its own position in the horoscope.

Actually, that's one of my favorite techniques to use, because there are a lot of empty houses that have no planets in them, so looking at the ruler of the sign on a house cusp is often necessary. I wasn't sure if that was also used in traditional astrology.

 

[conspiracy theorist]

Actually, that's one of my favorite techniques to use, because there are a lot of empty houses that have no planets in them, so looking at the ruler of the sign on a house cusp is often necessary. I wasn't sure if that was also used in traditional astrology.

This is definitely a thing. A notable proponent in the tradition is Jean-Baptiste Morin. https://www.astro.com/astrology/in_morin_e.htm

I raise this example to highlight the scope of the tradition; to show just how long it stretches for (since we have spent a lot of time on Hellenists).

 

[geminimercury]

Actually, that's one of my favorite techniques to use, because there are a lot of empty houses that have no planets in them, so looking at the ruler of the sign on a house cusp is often necessary. I wasn't sure if that was also used in traditional astrology.

You should read Dementra George book. It always use in Ancient astrology, you follow the RULER of that planet, example someone can have the same Ascendant, you follow where the Ruler of that house is in your chart,

example there is a HUGE different between 1st house Ruler in 11th, vs. a 1st house Ruler in 12th

Or 5th house Ruler right in 5th, vs. a 5th house Ruler in 8th (which can mean child even if born will die).

HUGE different here.

Remember, 12th house and 8th house do NOT see the 1st house you Ascendant, period. I do not romanticize those bad houses like modern.
And I speak as someone who has Moon in 12th, Venus in 8th. Sorry, I don't sugarcoat myself.

And I speak as someone who has Moon in 12th, Venus in 8th. Sorry, I don't sugarcoat myself.


Read those books I uploaded, this one I actually think it better than Dementra George book.
On the Heavenly Spheres - A Treatise on Traditional Astrology.
DOWNLOAD link (click where it say Free download): https://ufile.io/r60zct9d

 

[JUPITERASC]

This is definitely a thing. A notable proponent in the tradition is Jean-Baptiste Morin. https://www.astro.com/astrology/in_morin_e.htm I raise this example to highlight the scope of the tradition; to show just how long it stretches for (since we have spent a lot of time on Hellenists).

Vettius Valens 120 – c. 175
2nd-century Hellenistic astrologer
somewhat younger contemporary of Claudius Ptolemy.

Valens' major work is the Anthology - Latin: Anthologia
ten volumes in Ancient Greek
written roughly within the period 150 to 175.
The Anthology is the longest & most detailed treatise on astrology
which has survived from that period.
A working professional astrologer, Valens includes over a hundred sample charts
from his case files in the Anthology.

IN CONTRAST
The 17th century astrologer Jean-Baptiste Morin de Villefranche
was an astrologer from France who lived around the same time as William Lilly
& wrote a massive tome on astrology titled Astrologia Gallica
which means French Astrology.
Book 21 of Morin’s work is the most important book of Astrologia Gallica
where he outlines his unique approach to chart synthesis.

His approach interesting & different
when compared to some of his contemporaries.
MORIN was the last great court astrologer in France
before the decline of astrology in the 17th century.

Jean-Baptiste Morin's Astrology​

 

[JUPITERASC]

Yeah, that is definitely something I've thought about. I don't know if I've mentioned this analogy on this forum before or not, but here's something I think about with regards to the malefic planets. Mars, at least originally, probably symbolized war because it's named for the god of war. And presumably the reason it's regarded as malefic is that most people would think a war is a bad thing. But it occurs to me that not everyone is affected by a war in the same way. The guy who was drafted into a war and maybe lost a limb, would almost certainly see Mars as entirely malefic.

MARS is burning & drying
malefic, masculine, nocturnal.

But... what about the blacksmith who was selling and repairing weapons during the war? What about the officer that advanced in rank and received a lot of honors and status as a result of the war? What about the guy who gets paid to rebuild the town after the war? They were all part of the same war, they all likely experienced the energy of Mars in its rawest form, but they might have very different views on whether it was a good or bad thing for them.

MARS controls force, wars, robbery, screams, violence
the loss of property, banishment, exile, alienation from parents
captivity, the loss of good things, lies, vain hopes, violent theft
banditry, plundering, disputes between friends, wrath, fighting
verbal abuse, hatred, lawsuits, shouting, violent murder, slashing
& bloodshed, attacks of fever, boils, burns, imprisonment, torture
courage, false oaths, wandering, excelling at villainy
leadership, military service, high-ranking officers,
soldiers, supremacists
hunting, falling from heights
apoplexy
weapons, iron, reddish colours
Vettius Valens - THE ANTHOLOGY

 

[JUPITERASC]

I actually have Venus in Taurus in the 12th house, so Venus is both in the 12th, and rules the 12th. I'd... definitely have to say it may have played a negative role in my life. Though going into the details would make for too long a story.

For VENUS to become malefic requires an AFFLICTION
PLACE IS NOT an AFFLICTION

VENUS is OUT OF SECT in a DAY CHART
i.e.
To be AFFLICTED a STAR MUST be out of SECT
&/or RETROGRADE
&/or in an alien sign
&/or in the term of a malefic functioning as a malefic
&/or attacked by or besieged by malefics
The ATTACKING MALEFIC can ALSO be JUPITER, MOON or SUN.

.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Actually, that's one of my favorite techniques to use, because there are a lot of empty houses that have no planets in them, so looking at the ruler of the sign on a house cusp is often necessary. I wasn't sure if that was also used in traditional astrology.

You should read Dementra George book. It always use in Ancient astrology, you follow the RULER of that planet, example someone can have the same Ascendant, you follow where the Ruler of that house is in your chart, - example there is a HUGE different between 1st house Ruler in 11th, vs. a 1st house Ruler in 12th - Or 5th house Ruler right in 5th, vs. a 5th house Ruler in 8th (which can mean child even if born will die). HUGE different here.

Remember, 12th house and 8th house do NOT see the 1st house you Ascendant, period.

i.e.
House 12
&
House 8
ARE IN AVERSION TO THE ASCENDANT

Sunoikodespotes. Joint Domicile master. Aversion. ​

Method for Planets in Aversion ​

I do not romanticize those bad houses like modern. And I speak as someone who has Moon in 12th, Venus in 8th. Sorry, I don't sugarcoat myself. Read those books I uploaded, this one I actually think it better than Dementra George book. On the Heavenly Spheres - A Treatise on Traditional Astrology. DOWNLOAD link (click where it say Free download): https://ufile.io/r60zct9d

And I speak as someone who has Moon in 12th, Venus in 8th. Sorry, I don't sugarcoat myself.


Read those books I uploaded, this one I actually think it better than Dementra George book.
On the Heavenly Spheres - A Treatise on Traditional Astrology.
DOWNLOAD link (click where it say Free download): https://ufile.io/r60zct9d

 

[geminimercury]

@athenian200

What JupiterAsc said.

Malefics does not aspects your Venus, so at least that a good thing.

My Venus is the definition of afflicted, lol.

I am Aquarius Venus 8th house, Scorpio Mars 5th house. Mars overcome Venus rises before Venus in 5th, Mars Domicile, Venus is Peregrine no dignity.
5th house rises before 8th house, Mars dominant the Square.
........
Venus in Malefic Mars Bound, lol.
Scorpio Mars Square Venus EXACTLY at 0 orb
Scorpio Saturn also Square Venus but wider 8 orb
If you want it worst, Scorpio Pluto Square Venus too, but I leave that outer planet out.

My Venus does not cost me trouble, I just don't feel it and it does not give me benefic, due to it lock in Idle house, and BOTH Malefics Square it. I am long term married, married too long.

I am Daychart anyways, I don't need night planet Venus (that for Night sect), I need Jupiter on my side, I have Capricorn Jupiter in it Fall 7th house

 

[geminimercury]

I still believe in Sect very much, I still have full faith in Saturn and Jupiter in my chart, you should too Athenian200 you Daychart too

I just hate my Scorpio Mars, but then I have Mars Square Venus EXACTLY at 0 orb bold red line in my chart. All my life I have this love-hate feeling against my Mars, lol.

I'm still team Saturn, I love my Scorpio Saturn, adore it.

And tbh if I can choose I want Saturn on my side, Saturn can make your life hell if it against you. Mars sure you can be extremely violence and extremely abusive, but Mars go fast, it acts fast. Saturn however go slow, very slow, you be more miserable in the long run with Saturn. And cause misfortune, that is Saturn signature, lol.

@athenian200

I actually wish I have an Aquarius Saturn and Aquarius Mars, Saturn the Day planet prefer to be in Aquarius where Saturn has Triplicity in. Mars in Aquarius Rule by Saturn, Mars can't do anything, haha

Scorpio Mars and Scorpio Saturn, it the opposite, where Mars can do anything, and Saturn can't do much. Saturn is not well place in my chart, a Hellenistic astrologer said so, Saturn under the horizon (which Saturn hate already) and with Mars and get Rule by Mars.

But the astrologer told me, good thing Saturn Trine my Sun, Trine my Ascendant too, Trine Mercury too. Same with Mars, Mars Trine my Sun, and Trine my Mercury, Trine my Ascendant too.
Because Saturn Trine Sun, Saturn CAN SEE the Sun (his Sect light) even with Saturn under the horizon, so at least that saving grace.

 

[geminimercury]

Actually think back, Malefics not that terrible to me,

Mars Trine Sun
Mars Trine Mercury
Mars Trine Ascendant
Saturn Trine Sun
Saturn Trine Mercury
Saturn Trine Ascendant

That is harmony supporting aspects here.

Malefics just go Square Venus and abuse Venus only lol.