Bjorkstrand
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USA charts - the ultimate debate
- Thread starter pwadm
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waybread
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I note that our site owner, pwadm, started this thread in 2006 -- and the ultimate debate continues!
Re: planetary rulerships of phenomena, a topic raised by DC80:
Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book (1972) remains in print on amazon and at the American Federation of Astrologers bookstore, possibly because of the shortage of other handbooks on planetary rulerships. J. Lee Lehman published another one more recently, called The Book of Rulerships, available in hard copy via the AFA; but amazon.com lists it as currently unavailable. Amazon.ca lists some expensive copies available through used booksellers. So Rex E. Bills remains standing, even though he pre-dates all kinds of more recent phenomena.
Bills never claimed to be an astrologer. But back-when (I imagine with a lot of time on his hands) he simply compiled all of the information he could find on planetary rulerships, organized by topic; and then cross-indexed by planet, sign, and house. Where rulership is provisional, he notes it. Where there are two or more candidates for a rulership, he lists all of them.
To his credit, Bills has an extensive bibliography. Back in 1971, he didn't have access to traditional sources that weren't yet published in English, but he made wide use of the modern sources he could find, some of which accessed earlier sources. It's kind of a fun reference list, like Vivian Robson (1890-1942, who did a lot of research on fixed stars) who apparently wrote a book back-when, called Astrology and the Human Sex Life.)
Bills actually gives Jupiter's rulership of government as provisional, meaning that he found some reference to it, but it wasn't conclusive. Under "government," his main rulerships are the 10th house, sun, Leo, and Capricorn.
If we break this down, I am guessing that Jupiter, as king of the gods, was believed by one of Bills's sources to be the head of government. The 10th house and then sun in traditional astrology, absolutely. Prior to modern astrology, the sun ruled one's monarch and father, not the individual's own identity. In mundane astrology, the 10th house stands for the party in power. I'm guessing that Leo and Capricorn showed up as a modern conflation of planets equivalent to signs and houses-by-the-number.
Typically in mundane astrology, the 10th rules the head of state (previously, the monarch,) and/or the political party in power. The 4th house rules the opposition party; or "the people" (as opposed to the ruler/s.) Consequently the party in power or head of state could be symbolized by whatever planet rules the sign on the 10th house cusp.
Saturn is kind of an interesting candidate for the government, because traditionally it ruled various evils and woes that best humankind. Which is how Libertarians view government today.
Re: planetary rulerships of phenomena, a topic raised by DC80:
Rex E. Bills, The Rulership Book (1972) remains in print on amazon and at the American Federation of Astrologers bookstore, possibly because of the shortage of other handbooks on planetary rulerships. J. Lee Lehman published another one more recently, called The Book of Rulerships, available in hard copy via the AFA; but amazon.com lists it as currently unavailable. Amazon.ca lists some expensive copies available through used booksellers. So Rex E. Bills remains standing, even though he pre-dates all kinds of more recent phenomena.
Bills never claimed to be an astrologer. But back-when (I imagine with a lot of time on his hands) he simply compiled all of the information he could find on planetary rulerships, organized by topic; and then cross-indexed by planet, sign, and house. Where rulership is provisional, he notes it. Where there are two or more candidates for a rulership, he lists all of them.
To his credit, Bills has an extensive bibliography. Back in 1971, he didn't have access to traditional sources that weren't yet published in English, but he made wide use of the modern sources he could find, some of which accessed earlier sources. It's kind of a fun reference list, like Vivian Robson (1890-1942, who did a lot of research on fixed stars) who apparently wrote a book back-when, called Astrology and the Human Sex Life.)
Bills actually gives Jupiter's rulership of government as provisional, meaning that he found some reference to it, but it wasn't conclusive. Under "government," his main rulerships are the 10th house, sun, Leo, and Capricorn.
If we break this down, I am guessing that Jupiter, as king of the gods, was believed by one of Bills's sources to be the head of government. The 10th house and then sun in traditional astrology, absolutely. Prior to modern astrology, the sun ruled one's monarch and father, not the individual's own identity. In mundane astrology, the 10th house stands for the party in power. I'm guessing that Leo and Capricorn showed up as a modern conflation of planets equivalent to signs and houses-by-the-number.
Typically in mundane astrology, the 10th rules the head of state (previously, the monarch,) and/or the political party in power. The 4th house rules the opposition party; or "the people" (as opposed to the ruler/s.) Consequently the party in power or head of state could be symbolized by whatever planet rules the sign on the 10th house cusp.
Saturn is kind of an interesting candidate for the government, because traditionally it ruled various evils and woes that best humankind. Which is how Libertarians view government today.
Didn't the Emperor of Rome identify strongly with the Roman god Jupiter?
Saturn was the god of the Saturnalia, a holiday off from work.
Saturn was the god of the Saturnalia, a holiday off from work.
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Hi David,
Robert Hand, isn't an Expert on parans and fixed star, his comments below over transits and planets on angles, but not fixed stars, you need to go to Bernadette Brady for any interpretation.
"The importance of parans for this discussion is that they take latitude and declination into consideration. The important thing is not that two bodies will conjoin two angles in longitude, but that together they cross the great circles (the horizon and meridian) that define the angles. It is important to note, incidentally, the following fact about parans. The planets in question do not need to be actually on the angles in a chart to be in a paran. They only need to be in such a relationship that, if the earth were rotated until these planets came to the angles, they would both cross the angles together. It has also been demonstrated that paran relationships between natal and transiting bodies--in other words, paran transits--can be important.
Another fact about parans is that they depend upon the latitude of location. The important thing is not that two bodies will conjoin two angles in longitude, but that they cross the great circle of the horizon or meridian. Thus paran transits are affected by changing geographic latitude."
Robert Hand, isn't an Expert on parans and fixed star, his comments below over transits and planets on angles, but not fixed stars, you need to go to Bernadette Brady for any interpretation.
"The importance of parans for this discussion is that they take latitude and declination into consideration. The important thing is not that two bodies will conjoin two angles in longitude, but that together they cross the great circles (the horizon and meridian) that define the angles. It is important to note, incidentally, the following fact about parans. The planets in question do not need to be actually on the angles in a chart to be in a paran. They only need to be in such a relationship that, if the earth were rotated until these planets came to the angles, they would both cross the angles together. It has also been demonstrated that paran relationships between natal and transiting bodies--in other words, paran transits--can be important.
Another fact about parans is that they depend upon the latitude of location. The important thing is not that two bodies will conjoin two angles in longitude, but that they cross the great circle of the horizon or meridian. Thus paran transits are affected by changing geographic latitude."
socrates
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chris, according to Novak US has scorpio rising
JUPITERASC
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DC80, what's your pick for the most historically accurate U.S.A. founding Chart? If you can't post it, how about giving location, time, and date? Is there more than one possibility? We need accuracy, not popularity.
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waybread
Staff member
Folks, I've just deleted posts that were non-astrological (on an astrology board,) or off-topic, as well as the brief responses to them.
With an election coming up, this is an important topic, so hopefully we can all stick to it with astrological insights. It's OK to stretch the topic slightly but their should be a tie-in.
With an election coming up, this is an important topic, so hopefully we can all stick to it with astrological insights. It's OK to stretch the topic slightly but their should be a tie-in.
How do ancient astrologers and ancient religions help in determining the most accurate U.S.A. Chart? Post #389, for example, adds nothing on topic to the thread.
JUPITERASC
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.
Alan White astrologer - close associate of Project Hindsight
& Robert Schmidt, advises to use the ‘War’ chart
as the chart for the US like Boyd and Firebrace
Sibley was weak - 8th - a dysfunctional place, includes the lord of the Ascendant.
Ascendant Lord doesn’t even see the Ascendant
DATA
6 July 1775 at 11:05 AM Philadelphia adjusted time five minutes
has 0° on a whole house cusp
profections work on everything from the Seneca Falls Conference
to the Transatlantic Railroad, right on down the line.
Building of the Panama Canal
many different wars - the profections work
- the lord for profected place runs the year
- gives significant events. Transits to or by that become significant
horoscopes.astro-seek.com
.
Alan White astrologer - close associate of Project Hindsight
& Robert Schmidt, advises to use the ‘War’ chart
as the chart for the US like Boyd and Firebrace
Sibley was weak - 8th - a dysfunctional place, includes the lord of the Ascendant.
Ascendant Lord doesn’t even see the Ascendant
DATA
6 July 1775 at 11:05 AM Philadelphia adjusted time five minutes
has 0° on a whole house cusp
profections work on everything from the Seneca Falls Conference
to the Transatlantic Railroad, right on down the line.
Building of the Panama Canal
many different wars - the profections work
- the lord for profected place runs the year
- gives significant events. Transits to or by that become significant
Annual Profections, Astrology Online Calculator
www.Astro-Seek.com - Seek and meet people born on the same date as you
horoscopes.astro-seek.com
.
What's the first year Ascendant for July 6, 1775 @ 11:05 AM in Philadelphia, corrected time?.
Alan White astrologer - close associate of Project Hindsight
& Robert Schmidt, advises to use the ‘War’ chart
as the chart for the US like Boyd and Firebrace
Sibley was weak - 8th - a dysfunctional place, includes the lord of the Ascendant.
Ascendant Lord doesn’t even see the Ascendant
DATA
6 July 1775 at 11:05 AM Philadelphia adjusted time five minutes
has 0° on a whole house cusp
profections work on everything from the Seneca Falls Conference
to the Transatlantic Railroad, right on down the line.
Building of the Panama Canal
many different wars - the profections work
- the lord for profected place runs the year
- gives significant events. Transits to or by that become significant
Annual Profections, Astrology Online Calculator
www.Astro-Seek.com - Seek and meet people born on the same date as you
.
Anybody know?
FraterAC
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This is NOT the Constitution, or the adoption of it, so it does NOT represent the government of the United States.
You will note that the Articles of Confederation is ONE OF the charts Prof. Lorentzen used for his work (noted above).
This article says the Constitution "took effect" in 1789.
FraterAC
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Correct. The Articles of Confederation were for an interim organization until a permanent government was established.
T he Pledge of Allegiance should include the word "Constitution". The Flag by itself doesn't describe our Nation. Neptune was in Libra in 1789, same as at the birth of the Civil Rights Movement in1954. Keep the Faith!
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When you know the year and the place but not the time, here's the method that you use. Cast an Aries Ingress Chart for the place and year of founding. For the USA that is Philadelphia, 1781 and this is our Aries Ingress Chart:
Sagittarius is rising. I'm shocked, I tell you. Just shocking.
That is the last time you will ever cast an Aries Ingress Chart for the USA for so long as the USA exists. Those of you who cast an Aries Ingress every year are victims of the Telephone Game and that is a corruption of the original method.
From this point forward, we will cast the Mars/Saturn conjunction in Sagittarius to know the fate of the USA.
Because Saturn and Mars are in Sagittarius? Nope. That is not why. Some of you might have been misled to believe we cast the Mars/Saturn conjunction in Cancer. Nope. You're victims of the Telephone Game. You would use Cancer only if the Ingress had Cancer-rising for the founding of the country you're investigating.
Because they're malefics? Nope. That's Ptolemy talking who's like the David Icke of astrology spewing nonsense and misleading people with all kinds of bizarre fantasies. In Ptolemy's fantasy, Mars is hot and dry and Saturn is cold and dry which makes it "extra dry" like a Martini. Shaken, not stirred.
In the real astrology, Mars is hot and Saturn is cold. That's it. When two (or more) stars are co-present in the same sign (whether conjunct or not) we blend their natures which is why a "conjunction" is not an aspect. In an aspect a star is trying to influence another star and its success depends on the signs (that everyone pretends don't exist).
Best case scenario for Mars/Saturn is diurnally placed (in the daytime sky) in Capricorn which is a special type of mutual reception called communion (remember that mutual reception in natal/mundane charts requires one star to be in the elevated sign of the other). You get the best qualities of Mars, the drive and the ambition, tempered with the control, structure and organization of Saturn. I trust you call can modify that based on other signs and diurnal/nocturnal placement.
This is the technique used by al-Batanni, Zahel and Omar, and I think Abu-Bakr and we know they're quoting Antiochus, Dorotheus, Babillus and Hermes. These are the former, current and future charts:
JUPITERASC
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JUPITERASC
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the debate continues :
so the original method was corrupted as a consequence of the Telephone Game
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