Ascendants in ingress charts and durations according to modalities

[Clair Y]

I would love to hear what other people's views are on the following in mundane astrology:

I've noticed that a fixed Ascendant will mean the ingress chart will reflect conditions over the next 12 months, whilst a cardinal ascendant will reflect the next 3 months and a mutable ascendant will reflect the following 6 months.

However, I am unaware of the origin of these rules and how they came about. Is there anybody talking about the origin of this and the reasons for the guidelines here?

Looking at this intuitively, it might seem that fixed ascendants apply for a duration of 12 months because they are fixed in modality and the nature of being fixed is to resist change or to stay the same. If this is the case, then I would then intuitively say that cardinal ascendants would apply for 6 months and mutable for 3, rather than the other way around, because although cardinal is movement and action, mutable is adaptability and represents, I would say, less permanence than cardinal signs. But then the ingresses are all cardinal in nature anyway.

Just sharing my thoughts and seeing if anyone else has pondered this or knows the answer as to how this came about in the first place?

 

[Humanitarian]

I like mutable for 3 months and cardinal for 6 months, because they're more in line with their modalities. But, the rules are there, because they're similar to horary, so it's like horary that the timing of the cardinal sign is shorter than the timing of a mutable sign, and also because mutable signs are adaptable, but indecisive, not straightforward like cardinal signs, and that's why cardinal signs' timing is faster than mutable signs' timing.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I would love to hear what other people's views are on the following in mundane astrology:
I've noticed that a fixed Ascendant will mean the ingress chart will reflect conditions over the next 12 months, whilst a cardinal ascendant will reflect the next 3 months and a mutable ascendant will reflect the following 6 months.

However, I am unaware of the origin of these rules and how they came about.
Is there anybody talking about the origin of this and the reasons for the guidelines here?

HORARY ASTROLOGY - TIMING

cardinal signs represent days
mutable signs represent weeks
& fixed represent months
HOWEVER
The timing may be shifted
for horoscopic astrology fixed signs
to represent years if applicable
- e.g. natal

Looking at this intuitively, it might seem that fixed ascendants apply for a duration of 12 months
because they are fixed in modality and the nature of being fixed is to resist change or to stay the same.

INGRESSES OF THE SUN
Apply for twelve months Maximum

If this is the case, then I would then intuitively say that cardinal ascendants would apply for 6 months and mutable for 3, rather than the other way around, because although cardinal is movement and action, mutable is adaptability and represents, I would say, less permanence than cardinal signs. But then the ingresses are all cardinal in nature anyway.

Just sharing my thoughts and seeing if anyone else has pondered this or knows the answer as to how this came about in the first place?

An horary chart is valid for a period of time and not throughout life.
Usually the maximum period of horary chart is 1 year, not beyond it.
Horary chart can not answer life events.
It can provide a reading of maximum 1 year.


.

 

[Humanitarian]

I would love to hear what other people's views are on the following in mundane astrology:

I've noticed that a fixed Ascendant will mean the ingress chart will reflect conditions over the next 12 months, whilst a cardinal ascendant will reflect the next 3 months and a mutable ascendant will reflect the following 6 months.

However, I am unaware of the origin of these rules and how they came about. Is there anybody talking about the origin of this and the reasons for the guidelines here?

Looking at this intuitively, it might seem that fixed ascendants apply for a duration of 12 months because they are fixed in modality and the nature of being fixed is to resist change or to stay the same. If this is the case, then I would then intuitively say that cardinal ascendants would apply for 6 months and mutable for 3, rather than the other way around, because although cardinal is movement and action, mutable is adaptability and represents, I would say, less permanence than cardinal signs. But then the ingresses are all cardinal in nature anyway.

Just sharing my thoughts and seeing if anyone else has pondered this or knows the answer as to how this came about in the first place?

The rules are there because of horary timing, as JupASC said.

 

[JUPITERASC]

However, I am unaware of the origin of these rules and how they came about.

HORARY

Is there anybody talking about the origin of this and the reasons for the guidelines here?

 

[JUPITERASC]

..talking about the origin of this and the reasons for the guidelines here?

.

 

[Clair Y]

I like mutable for 3 months and cardinal for 6 months, because they're more in line with their modalities. But, the rules are there, because they're similar to horary, so it's like horary that the timing of the cardinal sign is shorter than the timing of a mutable sign, and also because mutable signs are adaptable, but indecisive, not straightforward like cardinal signs, and that's why cardinal signs' timing is faster than mutable signs' timing.

I like that, what you said about mutable signs being adaptable but indecisive, as it opens up doors for me think of things differently, but to be honest I have witnessed more indecisiveness in cardinal signs (especially Cancer and Libra) than mutables. Mutables seem to jump straight in and then adapt to what they've chosen. Thinking of maintaining as well, whilst fixed signs are great at being resourceful and maintaining structures, I am not so sure about cardinal signs, as they tend to dip in and back out of things a lot. Mutable signs seem more at ease with maintaining what they started than the cardinals. As the cardinals are quick to jump in, they are also quick to jump out, as in they are action-oriented either way/ direction. Having said all of this it now makes sense that cardinals are given 3 months and mutables are 6.

 

[Clair Y]

HORARY ASTROLOGY - TIMING

cardinal signs represent days
mutable signs represent weeks
& fixed represent months
HOWEVER
The timing may be shifted
for horoscopic astrology fixed signs
to represent years if applicable
- e.g. natal



INGRESSES OF THE SUN
Apply for twelve months Maximum





An horary chart is valid for a period of time and not throughout life.
Usually the maximum period of horary chart is 1 year, not beyond it.
Horary chart can not answer life events.
It can provide a reading of maximum 1 year.


.

Thank you, I really need to get into Horary astrology. Do Ingresses and Ingress charts fall under Horary? It would make a lot of sense.

 

[Clair Y]

HORARY

Thank you!

 

[Clair Y]

.

Thanks, will go and watch these. I feel much better about these rules for Horary now.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Thank you, I really need to get into Horary astrology.
Do Ingresses and Ingress charts fall under Horary? It would make a lot of sense.

Ingresses & their charts are Mundane Astrology

.

 

[Humanitarian]

I like that, what you said about mutable signs being adaptable but indecisive, as it opens up doors for me think of things differently, but to be honest I have witnessed more indecisiveness in cardinal signs (especially Cancer and Libra) than mutables. Mutables seem to jump straight in and then adapt to what they've chosen. Thinking of maintaining as well, whilst fixed signs are great at being resourceful and maintaining structures, I am not so sure about cardinal signs, as they tend to dip in and back out of things a lot. Mutable signs seem more at ease with maintaining what they started than the cardinals. As the cardinals are quick to jump in, they are also quick to jump out, as in they are action-oriented either way/ direction. Having said all of this it now makes sense that cardinals are given 3 months and mutables are 6.

Thanks Clair for this comment! This is kind of true for me though, because Librans are pretty indecisive, unlike Geminis.

 

[DC80]

I would love to hear what other people's views are on the following in mundane astrology:

I've noticed that a fixed Ascendant will mean the ingress chart will reflect conditions over the next 12 months, whilst a cardinal ascendant will reflect the next 3 months and a mutable ascendant will reflect the following 6 months.

However, I am unaware of the origin of these rules and how they came about. Is there anybody talking about the origin of this and the reasons for the guidelines here?

They're a mistake based on a mistranslation and misunderstanding of something Ptolemy-the-non-astrologer-who-would-****-his-pants-if-he-ever-had-to-read-a-chart said. Ptolemy said everything begins with Sun's entry into Aries and the Arabs and Persians misunderstood that to mean you cast an Aries Ingress chart. That is the wrong technique.

The correct technique is outlined here: https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/index.php?threads/mars-saturn-conjunction-signs.148228/

We do not use the Sibley Chart because it is a matter of historical fact and record that nothing happened on July 4th because nothing was supposed to happen because nothing was planned to happen. The Declaration was actually signed on August 2nd, 1776.

But that's irrelevant because it's a Declaration chart and (like a conception chart) the only question it will answer is will the the colonies obtain independence or not. Once the end is known (like a conception chart) it is an ex-chart.

I encourage all of you to read the Declaration at least once in your life so's you can see it creates 13 separate totally independent countries and not a single country. Those 13 separate totally independent colonies-turned-countries finally united after 3 and 1/2 years of trying to sell the Articles of Confederation on March 2nd, 1781 at about 9:00 am in Philadelphia.

This is the only time we cast an Aries Ingress Chart. We cast it for 1781 in Philadelphia and the rising sign is Sagittarius. I'm shocked I tell you.

Sagittarius represents the US and you cast the Mars/Saturn conjunction in Sagittarius which means you'll have to cast a new chart about every 30 years or so. This is the current operating chart.

We no longer cast Aries Ingress Charts. Now we cast a chart for the New Moon that occurs just before the Spring Equinox unless there's a star that goes stationary in-between that time in which case we cast a chart for the date/time that star goes stationary because stationary stars are real powerful, even in natal charts.

But I don't see the point. Let's do astrology.

I like rising times because I'm freaking lazy and don't like casting tons of charts.

For your viewing pleasure we have Sun in a superior square to Mars/Saturn. Ripped straight from the Greek texts:

1) Sun superior square Saturn = hostility from subordinates
2) Sun superior square Mars = stirs up fights and excites fearful threats of public punishment destroying good judgment and the power of the mind.

We want to know when this Sun square Mars/Saturn will be activated. What is the rising time of Sagittarius at latitude 39°?

35° which we take as months and Sun is angular but not the sign ruler of Sagittarius so we take Sun's mean period of 19 as months and we get

35 + 19 is 54 months

August 2016 to July 2017 is 12 months
August 2017 to July 2018 is 24 months (running total)
August 2018 to July 2019 is 36 months
August 2019 to July 2020 is 48 months
August 2020 is 49 months
September 2020 is 50 months
October 2020 is 51 months
November 2020 is 52 months
December 2020 is 53 months
January 2021 is 54 months

Can anyone tell me was there something that happened in January 2021 related to hostility from subordinates and/or stirs up fights and excites fearful threats of public punishment destroying good judgment and the power of the mind?

Well, there you go.

Aries, Leo, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn and Aquarius are going to activate that Sun square Mars/Saturn 6 times between 2016 and 2046.

I have no idea who will be president in 2029 but they are going to have a big crisis.

This whole period 2016-2046 is not a particularly good period for the US or Americans and it's even worse for presidents. All of them are going to struggle, some more than others.

I haven't finished the predictive interpretations of this chart because it's depressing and because the 2046 Chart that takes over is worse with Mars/Saturn in the 7th co-present with an 100% out of sect Moon and an out of sect retrograde Jupiter opposition Sun/Venus and Mercury opposition Fortune. Smells like war/conflict but we'll have to see.

 

[waybread]

A good article on mundane ingress chart, discussing the duration of validity:

Skyscript: Ingresses, an Introduction to Mundane Astrology

An Introduction to Ingresses and significations in mundane astrology with commentaries on the Aries Ingress 2004 by Deborah Houlding, Sue Toohey and Tom Callanan

www.skyscript.co.uk

I looked at ingress charts for the 2016 US presidential election. They did not predict a Trump win. Someone who got it right used primary directions.

Something else worth reading is Geoffrey Cornelius, The Moment of Astrology. He notes, with examples, how a chart can be radical (having explanatory power) even if its timing is not strictly accurate. The Sibly chart for the US has traction because it has proved radical in many examples.

Ptolemy is actually my favorite Hellenistic astrologer. We have no idea whether he read horoscopes for people or not, and his critics typically overlook Ptolemy's contributions to astrology basics. His Geography is a compendium of the latitudes and longitudes of every place he could catalogue in the known world. His Handy Tables were an early ephemeris. Who wants to construct a horoscope when the birth location coordinates are unknown and there is no ephemeris?

A lot of Tetrabiblos is mundane in nature.

Ptolemy was criticized for plagiarizing from Hipparchus in the Almagest, but we know about Hipparchus's contributions primarily through their preservation in the Almagest. It has to be said that standards of citations were not so rigorous ca. 150 CE. Tetrabiblos was apparently written, in part, as a rebuttal of Cicero's criticism of astrology in On Divination. One of Ptolemy's principal projects was to bring Aristotelian. proto-science to an astrology that was freighted with Egyptian magical lore (on which see Valens's disenchantment with Petosiris.) This is the basis of astrology's 4 elements (earth, air, fire, water) and qualities (cool, hot, moist, dry.) They became the basis of astrological temperaments.

To really appreciate ancient astrologers, we have to get out of a presentist mindset, and try to get into their world.

In Ptolemy's day, multiple calendars were in use across the ancient world. The Hellenists got astrology from the Babylonians: legend has it, via Berossus, a priest of Marduk. So it made some sense to use a calendar already in use among astrologers. They began the year with 0 degrees Aries, the spring equinox.

In Tetrabiblos I: 10, Ptolemy notes that "there is no natural beginning to the zodiac, since it is a circle, they [his predecessors], they assume that the sign which begins with the vernal equinox, that is of Aries, is the starting point of them all..."

In other words, you have to start somewhere, and 0 Aries is as good as anything.

Ptolemy's principal method of prediction in mundane astrology seems to have been based on eclipses, which were crucial for Babylonian astrologers. (2: 4-6.) The timing and duration of an event was based on tracking the timing and duration of an eclipse across regions where it could be observed. My reading of his method is that it would require a group of astrologers spread out across the landscape, recording the important data, and then subsequently consulting with one another to predict an event, its impact, and duration. Today this could probably be done via AI or data basis on eclipses.

 

[JUPITERASC]

I would love to hear what other people's views are on the following in mundane astrology: I've noticed that a fixed Ascendant will mean the ingress chart will reflect conditions over the next 12 months, whilst a cardinal ascendant will reflect the next 3 months and a mutable ascendant will reflect the following 6 months. However, I am unaware of the origin of these rules and how they came about. Is there anybody talking about the origin of this and the reasons for the guidelines here? Just sharing my thoughts and seeing if anyone else has pondered this or knows the answer as to how this came about in the first place?

They're a mistake based on a mistranslation and misunderstanding of something Ptolemy-the-non-astrologer-who-would-****-his-pants-if-he-ever-had-to-read-a-chart said. Ptolemy said everything begins with Sun's entry into Aries and the Arabs and Persians misunderstood that to mean you cast an Aries Ingress chart. That is the wrong technique. The correct technique is outlined here: https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/index.php?threads/mars-saturn-conjunction-signs.148228/

This is interesting - thank you

We do not use the Sibley Chart because it is a matter of historical fact and record that nothing happened on July 4th because nothing was supposed to happen because nothing was planned to happen. The Declaration was actually signed on August 2nd, 1776. But that's irrelevant because it's a Declaration chart and (like a conception chart) the only question it will answer is will the the colonies obtain independence or not. Once the end is known (like a conception chart) it is an ex-chart. I encourage all of you to read the Declaration at least once in your life so's you can see it creates 13 separate totally independent countries and not a single country. Those 13 separate totally independent colonies-turned-countries finally united after 3 and 1/2 years of trying to sell the Articles of Confederation on March 2nd, 1781 at about 9:00 am in Philadelphia.

This is the only time we cast an Aries Ingress Chart. We cast it for 1781 in Philadelphia and the rising sign is Sagittarius. I'm shocked I tell you. Sagittarius represents the US and you cast the Mars/Saturn conjunction in Sagittarius which means you'll have to cast a new chart about every 30 years or so. This is the current operating chart.

View attachment 112390

We no longer cast Aries Ingress Charts. Now we cast a chart for the New Moon that occurs just before the Spring Equinox unless there's a star that goes stationary in-between that time in which case we cast a chart for the date/time that star goes stationary because stationary stars are real powerful, even in natal charts.

But I don't see the point. Let's do astrology.

I like rising times because I'm freaking lazy and don't like casting tons of charts.

For your viewing pleasure we have Sun in a superior square to Mars/Saturn. Ripped straight from the Greek texts:

1) Sun superior square Saturn = hostility from subordinates
2) Sun superior square Mars = stirs up fights and excites fearful threats of public punishment destroying good judgment and the power of the mind.

We want to know when this Sun square Mars/Saturn will be activated. What is the rising time of Sagittarius at latitude 39°?

35° which we take as months and Sun is angular but not the sign ruler of Sagittarius so we take Sun's mean period of 19 as months and we get

35 + 19 is 54 months

August 2016 to July 2017 is 12 months
August 2017 to July 2018 is 24 months (running total)
August 2018 to July 2019 is 36 months
August 2019 to July 2020 is 48 months
August 2020 is 49 months
September 2020 is 50 months
October 2020 is 51 months
November 2020 is 52 months
December 2020 is 53 months
January 2021 is 54 months

Can anyone tell me was there something that happened in January 2021 related to hostility from subordinates and/or stirs up fights and excites fearful threats of public punishment destroying good judgment and the power of the mind?

Well, there you go.

Aries, Leo, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn and Aquarius are going to activate that Sun square Mars/Saturn 6 times between 2016 and 2046.

I have no idea who will be president in 2029 but they are going to have a big crisis.

This whole period 2016-2046 is not a particularly good period for the US or Americans and it's even worse for presidents. All of them are going to struggle, some more than others.

I haven't finished the predictive interpretations of this chart because it's depressing and because the 2046 Chart that takes over is worse with Mars/Saturn in the 7th co-present with an 100% out of sect Moon and an out of sect retrograde Jupiter opposition Sun/Venus and Mercury opposition Fortune. Smells like war/conflict but we'll have to see.

 

[DC80]

I should mention the Aries Ingress technique works for companies but not for stocks.

The IPO (Initial Public Offering) only tells you about the stock and not the company. New IPOs are date/time stamped and available online but for older companies that had IPOs you'll have to contact the SEC and probably use the Freedom of Information Act to get the initial filing so's you can see the actual time. Aside from that, you know what? I don't give a **** about stocks or corporations and the stock market has absolutely nothing to do with the economy.

When you're doing charts for companies, you need to be very, very careful and be very diligent in your research and Standard Oil is a classic example of why you need to be so diligent and, yes, it may take you months to get the answers you need to cast the correct chart.

Standard Oil formed as a partnership in Cleveland, Ohio in 1863. You can cast an Aries Ingress Chart for 1863 at Cleveland to get the particulars, namely the rising sign which will now represent Standard Oil and you'd cast the Mars/Saturn conjunction in the rising sign to know the fate of Standard Oil.

In 1870, Standard Oil incorporates in Cleveland and this is why it's so important to be so diligent: the partnership was terminated.

That's why we cast a new Aries Ingress Chart. That's unusual because normally the partnership (general, limited, limited liability is irrelevant just as an LLC is irrelevant) survives and becomes a shareholder. That's why it's called an IPO with the "P" being "Public" because that's the first chance the public has to buy the stock but even before that 1,000's of shares are distributed privately to investors as a "gift" for helping form the corporation.

And, yes, you'll see Saturn transiting the 9th place which is government crackdowns because Saturn is government and not Jupiter. The crackdowns can be on races/ethnic groups, opposition parties, political parties, religions, religious leaders, business/industry -- like monopolies in the case of Standard Oil -- social groups, environmental groups, social media platforms and other entities.

When Standard Oil gets broken up, you need to be diligent because Standard Oil survives as Standard Oil of New Jersey but we do not cast a new chart. Standard Oil of New Jersey changed its name to Exxon. Standard Oil of New York change its name to Mobil but we do not cast a new chart. Exxon merged with Mobil. Do we cast a new chart? Well, no but there's one chart that's basically dead.

We do cast a new chart for Standard Oil of Ohio with the catchy acronym SOHIO but it ceased to exist when purchased by British Petroleum.

The Continental Oil Company is probably the hardest because it gets bought by Marland Oil who adopts Conoco's name then gets bought by DuPont who end up spinning Conoco off and Conoco merges with Phillips 66 then later spins Phillips off.

The 1st Place is your business so to determine if the year is good, bad or mixed you're looking at the stars in aspect to the 1st Place and the location/condition of the ruler.

The 2nd Place is your company's finances. Again what's the condition of the ruler and what stars aspect the 2nd Place.

The 3rd Place is communications which is any press releases or SEC filings and other things the company issues and also any contracts under negotiation.

The 4th Place is the company's property and physical assets. Pay particular attention to an afflicted/impeded Jupiter in the 4th. Mars/Sun can indicate a fire which could wreak havoc with supply chain/logistics. Mars and Mercury afflicting Jupiter there could indicate an earthquake and Saturn afflicting suggests floods or storms damage.

The 5th is agents/representatives of the company. Note a peregrine star might indicate a 3rd party negotiating on behalf of the company (the 5th sextiles the 3rd, trines the 1st, sextiles the 7th and so on). It may also represent contractors employed by the company. You see that in construction a lot. You contract a company who contracts other companies who actually perform the work or supply the goods.

The 6th is employees and unions.

The 7th is the company's consumers-at-large. Your consumers-at-large may be all classes of consumers or it may limited.

So maybe the business sells to households and other businesses, which you'd expect for paper products. But if the business makes ball bearings they ain't selling to households and likewise for companies that produce intermediate goods or semi-finished goods for sale to other companies.

Some businesses produce goods or provide services exclusively to government(s). That's especially true in the defense industry.

Pay attention to the 7th ruler because if afflicted they might shun your company's products.

The 8th is the financial condition of your consumers. Maybe your company provides goods/services to a local government and the local government is strapped for cash. Uh-oh.

The 9th is communications, contracts and the like from your consumers.

The 10th is the prices of the goods/services your company provides. "My company sells lots of different stuff." True, but they can be grouped as classes and here's where things like bound rulers come into play so's you can differentiate between things like clothing, cosmetics and perfumes, or various metals or whatever or like Bayer which makes aspirin, poison gas and fertilizer or whatever they're doing now.

The 11th is agent/representatives of your consumers and again a peregrine star indicates a 3rd party involved on their behalf.

The 12th is competitors. It's also unknown factors or forces at work. If there's a problem with the 12th, then look to the 9th which is also regulatory agencies or look to the 8th which is also lawsuits.

For a lawsuit, you'll want to cast a separate chart (the complaints are date/time stamped so no issue there).

The 11th as I said is agents of your consumers so ruler of the 11th in the 12th is not cool. Likewise ruler of the 5th in the 12th might indicate something shady the company is doing. Ruler of the 1st in the 12th is so not cool.